Answering Muslims: Question on Killing (for Sami and Yahya)

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Wednesday, November 26, 2008

Question on Killing (for Sami and Yahya)

Before I post my debate on peace and violence in Islam and Christianity with Adnan Rashid, I have a short, simple question for Sami Zaatari and Yahya Hayder Seymour.

In my opening statement, I said that I am a man of peace because I have been commanded to be a man of peace. I said that if Islam were true, I would have been a man of violence. In other words, I will do what God tells me to do. As things stand, God has commanded me to live in peace with all men.

Later in the debate, Adnan asked if I would kill a child if God commanded me to. I responded in complete accord with what I had said in my opening statement. I will do whatever God commands me to do.

Adnan was shocked at my response, and he said that he would need to keep his children away from me (apparently in spite of the fact that God has commanded me to harm no one).

It seems, then, that if God were to command Adnan to do something he didn't want to do, Adnan would refuse. In the debate, I pointed out that this is the real reason Muslims reject Christianity. They reject doctrines such as the Incarnation because they don't like them.

My question for Sami and Yahya is this: Do you agree with Adnan? God doesn't allow Muslims to kill children (with certain exceptions, e.g. battles at night). God doesn't allow Christians to kill anyone. But if God were to appear to us and were to tell us to kill some child (let us suppose that we know for a fact that God is speaking), would you reject God's command or not? (I would have included Bassam in this question, but I'm fairly certain that Bassam would agree with me: Whatever God tells us to do must be done. I'm less certain about the position of Sami and Yahya.)

So, before I respond to Adnan's charge, I would like to know where Yahya and Sami stand.

Posted by David Wood at 2:14 PM

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24 comments:

Sami Zaatari said...: well i cant answer the Q for a simple reason, i dont believe God would ask me to do that. now i know you want to hypothetical etc but i think you can understand this is beyond a simple hypothetical Q, i 100% dont believe God would ever ask me to do such thing, because he has taught us not to kill children in the first place!

So if someone put this Q to me in a debate, i wouldnt give a straight yes, i would give the same explanation of the above.

again, this is a situation u have to be in to give a real answer, and i believe this situation will never arise.; November 26, 2008 at 9:29 PM
David Wood said...: Sami, it's a simple question. I don't believe God would ask me to do this either. But if you were to wake up one day, and God were to command you to do this, would you do it or would you rebel? Don't take the easy way out and say, "But God wouldn't say this." We're not talking about God here. We're talking about you. Are you the sort of person who would obey God's commands, whatever they may be? Or are you the sort of person who would reject a command you didn't like?; November 26, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Khayyam said...: Well we both (muslims and christians) should follow Abraham and do what he did when God commanded him to slay his son.

Although, i agree 100% with br Sami in that God would not request us to do such a thing..

Regards
Khayyam; November 27, 2008 at 1:17 AM
David Wood said...: Khayyam,

You can't agree that God wouldn't ask someone to kill his child, since God did exactly that in both the Qur'an and the Bible (as you pointed out). True, God stopped Abraham, but this doesn't change the fact that God told him to do it.

So here is my difficulty. It seems that you agree with me that Abraham was right to obey God, regardless of what God commands. But in condemning me for saying that I would do anything God commands, Adnan Rashid also condemned Abraham.

Moreover, Sami has said that God would never ask him to do something like this. In other words, he's saying that the True God would never ask one of His servants to kill a child. And yet both the Bible and the Qur'an say that God did this. This means that, if Sami's right and God would never command such a thing, then the Bible and the Qur'an are wrong when they say that God commanded such a thing.

My difficulty is that, in just about every debate or discussion I have with Muslims, the Muslim eventually ends up condemning his own book, his own prophets, or his own God along the way. I just can't figure out why Muslims aren't more careful, or why they don't think through their criticisms more carefully.; November 27, 2008 at 1:27 AM
Nabeel Qureshi said...: David, it seems to me that Sami is dead set on seeing God only as he wants to. If God appeared to Sami and commanded him exactly as He commanded Abraham, Sami would be so convinced of his own version of God that he probably wouldn't even recognize his Lord standing before him!

It's no wonder, then, that we see Muslims often reinterpreting the evidence in order to fit their view of God.; November 27, 2008 at 1:53 AM
Nabeel Qureshi said...: What is even more astounding is that Sami denies that God would do something that we all agree He has already done! Simply amazing :-); November 27, 2008 at 1:54 AM
Yahya Hayder Seymour said...: Professor Wood,

Hypothetically speaking, If I had 100% certainty that God was speaking to me, and he asked me to kill someone, I would do it.

Because:

A) God is righteous and just in his very nature.
B) He has knowledge of the unseen.

Therefore who am I to question his authority in this matter?

However as Sami pointed out, God doesnt act in this way.; November 27, 2008 at 2:32 AM
Sami Zaatari said...: again, i repeat my answer as above, I dont believe God would even ask me to do it in the first place, and trying to bring Abraham into the equation is a very weak response, because what happened to Abraham was the exception, hence you cant apply this to the general.; November 27, 2008 at 6:41 AM
Dk said...: Let me get this straight, David, Bassam and Yahya are all prepared to follow the commands of an omnscient, omnibenevolent deity no matter how irrational and/or unethical a command may appear to be aslong as they are certain God is speaking with them. It follows DCT is perhaps one of the most immoral theological creations ever concevied of.

I get worried when I hear religious believers espouse views like this because this sort of experience does take place in the real world and as a result multiple attrocities can be cited e.g. Jewish Talmudists blowing up Palestinian school children, the faithful Christians blowing up abortion clinics and attacking homosexuals, Muslims dying in Saudi Arabia due to the walking around of an enshrined black rock and a process of stoning "satan".

Some of these examples are not examples of direct personal revelations but nonetheless a revelation derived from religious faith or scripture combined with an absolute certainty and divine conviction.

In reference to the Abraham story what would be the purpose in God planting the moral law of God on the hearts and minds of humans, and then telling them to do the precise opposite? Is that a test of faith? One would assume the other character (satan the adversary) would be the one telling the believers to do the opposite to the Law of God, and not the God who put those laws there to begin with! God then essentially becomes his own adversary in all irony. Lastly not to forget to mention but an omnscient being doesn't need to test the faith of any subject since after all, the being is already omnscient =) and thus afterall God was only screwing with Abraham (this has serious implications on the mind of God).

DCT disables human morality and makes it completely obselete and void.

DCT is bankrupt.; November 27, 2008 at 7:30 AM
Dk said...: David says:

"I pointed out that this is the real reason Muslims reject Christianity. They reject doctrines such as the Incarnation because they don't like them."

Yes David! Muslims don't like the idea of God becoming a fetus and evolving as an embryo only to come out of a womens vag*** (which they find to be unclean apparently) and later be killed by pagan romans on a tree (which Gods law curses as a condemned mans death), despite the evidence that proves God did this. Btw it is also a proven that Muhammad rode on a donkey throughout a celestial journey to visit Moses, Jesus and Adam, oh wait there is no evidence for any of this.

David in all seriousness, they are not only rejecting the story and themes behind Christianity (since they dislike them and find them to be irrational), but clearly they are also rejecting the evidence since it is not sufficent for them, as you find the same for Islam.; November 27, 2008 at 7:47 AM
Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...: Zami Zatari wrote:

Abraham was the exception, hence you cant apply this to the general.

Elijah replies:

The passage below records how a great prophet of Allah in the Qur'an (so great that even Moses worried in his presence) killed a boy who had yet not committed a sin deservable for death.

Obviously this prophet acted under the guidance of Allah:

They found a servant of Ours whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had also given knowledge direct from Us. Musa said to him, "May I follow you on condition that you teach me some of the right guidance you have been taught?"

He said, "You will not be able to bear with me. How indeed could you bear with patience something you have not encompassed in your knowledge?"

Musa said, "You will find me patient, if God wills, and I will not disobey you in any matter."

He said, "Then if you follow me, do not question me about anything until I myself make mention of it to you."

They continued until they boarded a boat and he scuppered it. Then Musa said, "Did you scupper it so that those in it would be drowned? This is truly a dreadful thing that you have done!"

He said, "Did I not say that you would not be able to bear with me?"

Musa said, "Do not take me to task because I forgot. Do not demand of me something which is too difficult."

So they went on until they met a youngster whom he killed. Musa said, "Have you killed a boy who has done no wrong, without it being in retaliation for someone else? This is truly an appalling thing that you have done!"

He said, "Did I not tell you that you would not be able to bear with me?"

Musa said, "If I ask you about anything after this, then you should no longer keep me company. I will have given you excuse enough."

So they went on until they reached the inhabitants of a town. They asked them for food but they refused them hospitality. They found there a wall about to fall down and he built it up. Musa said, "If you had wanted, you could have taken a wage for doing that."

He said, "This is where you and I part company. I will let you know the explanation of those things about which you were not able to restrain yourself. As for the boat, it belonged to some poor people who worked on the sea. I wanted to damage it because a king was coming behind them, commandeering every boat. As for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared that he would darken their days with excessive insolence and transgression. We wanted their Lord to give them in exchange a purer son than him, one more compassionate. As for the wall, it belonged to two young orphans in the town and there was a treasure underneath it, belonging to them. Their father was one of the pious and your Lord wanted them to come of age and then to unearth their treasure as a mercy from Him. I did not do it of my own volition. That is the explanation of the things about which you were not able to restrain yourself." (Qur'an, 18: 65-82); November 27, 2008 at 9:18 AM
Yahya Hayder Seymour said...: Hogan,

Get your facts straight Khidhr was not a Prophet.; November 27, 2008 at 9:39 AM
Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...: Was he not a prophet or at least someone with the gift of Allah to know the future, how do you explain prediction?

Surely the passage describes him as a wise men (if killing an innocent youth can be described as wise)

But mere wisdom is not equated with knowing the future.

The Qur'an provides this description of the wise man:

'They found a servant of Ours whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had also given knowledge direct from Us. Musa said to him, "May I follow you on condition that you teach me some of the right guidance you have been taught?"

Hence a servant of Allah, with knowledge given directly from Allah.

Based on this servanthood and divine knowledge the text goes on to say:

He said, "This is where you and I part company. I will let you know the explanation of those things about which you were not able to restrain yourself. As for the boat, it belonged to some poor people who worked on the sea. I wanted to damage it because a king was coming behind them, commandeering every boat. As for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared that he would darken their days with excessive insolence and transgression. We wanted their Lord to give them in exchange a purer son than him, one more compassionate. As for the wall, it belonged to two young orphans in the town and there was a treasure underneath it, belonging to them. Their father was one of the pious and your Lord wanted them to come of age and then to unearth their treasure as a mercy from Him. I did not do it of my own volition. That is the explanation of the things about which you were not able to restrain yourself." (Qur'an, 18: 65-82); November 27, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Nakdimon said...: Khayyam said: Although, i agree 100% with br Sami in that God would not request us to do such a thing..

Well, I’m sure that the Muslims in MUMBAI were thinking the same thing yesterday, when they conconted and executed the massacre over there. You can add this up to the tally of your peaceful Islamic religion.

It is funny though, that when muslims left and right start killing people in the name of their religion, we can’t asociate these acts with Islam and if we dare to make that link to Islam we are immediately demonized by muslims, EVENTHOUGH the people that perpetrate these acts, attribute them to the glory of Allah and his messenger.

But when a western country, totally secular and claiming no religious basis for their acts, do certain things, then muslims will blame Christianity and they claim they have the full right too.

But this is what Islam does to you: Sami and his fellow muslims see violence in the New Testament and claim that Christians are called to violence, where there is nothing there, but they repudiate every act of murder their prophet perpetrated.

“Woe to those who say of the evil that it is good and of the good that it is evil; who present darkness as light and light as darkness, who present bitter as sweet and sweet as bitter.” (Isaiah 5:20); November 27, 2008 at 11:40 AM
David Wood said...: DK,

I'm not sure you understand the point we're discussing, nor do you understand Divine Command Theory.

No one writing here believes that God is going to command us to kill a child. We're discussing a hypothetical world so we can perform a thought experiment.

As you take it, we're saying, "What if God became evil and told us to do evil things?" Wouldn't it be wicked for a being to command us to do wicked things?

But that's not what we're talking about. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and wholly good. If God were to command something, even if it seemed bad to us, it must be good. And that's what we're asking. If something seemed bad to us, and God commanded us to do it, would we trust God enough to obey Him, knowing that he knows better than us?

One doesn't have to be a Divine Command Theorist to obey. What ethical position do you take? Consequentialism/Utilitarianism I'm guessing. So let's examine this on Consequentialist grounds. (For anyone not familiar with various ethical theories, Consequentialism is the view that an act is right or wrong based on the outcome of the act.

Assuming that this moral theory is correct, how would we reason if an omniscient, omnipotent, wholly good being commanded us to do something? We would have to reason that this being is aware of consequences that we do not know of, and that the outcome of heeding the command is better (e.g. we would reason that, if God commands you to kill a child, God knows that this child is going to grow up to be the next Hitler, and that killing the child, though bad in itself, yields better consequences than allowing the child to murder millions).

Now, this was inevitable, DK. As an atheist, how can you say that killing a child is wrong (so wrong that you would even reject a divine command to do it)? Do you just feel that way? If so, plenty of people feel like killing people. So what basis do you have for saying that something is wrong? Please share with the group.; November 27, 2008 at 11:54 AM
David Wood said...: DK,

You say that Muslims aren't persuaded by the evidence for Christianity. This is true, but why aren't they persuaded? Evidence never really enters into the equation. The Old Testament tells us that God would enter into His creation. Jesus claimed over and over to be divine. When Muslims examine this, they say, as you note, "What? God touched a vagina? Nonsense! No amount of evidence will ever convince me of this."

And so their reason for rejecting the evidence is not that the evidence is weak. Their rejection is a priori.

You compare the evidence for Muhammad's journey through the heavens with the evidence for Christianity. You obviously haven't investigated the evidence for Christianity. Muhammad had a vision. His wife said he never even left his bed. Hence, even if this vision had been from God, it's not the sort of thing anyone could ever verify. So it makes no sense for you to (mockingly) say that this has been proven.

Compare this with Jesus' resurrection. To know that Jesus rose from the dead, we'd need to know two things. We'd need to know (1) that Jesus died, and (2) that Jesus was alive again after He died. Notice that both (1) and (2) are open to historical investigation. Hence, the evidence for Christianity, even before we examine it, is already in a different category from Muhammad's vision.; November 27, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Fernando said...: How!!! Yahya spoke...; November 27, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Sunil said...: Dk,

>> ..all prepared to follow the commands of an omnscient, omnibenevolent deity no matter how irrational and/or unethical a command may appear to be aslong as they are certain God is speaking with them.

You yourself described God as "omnscient, omnibenevolent". If so, how can such a God command something irrational and/or unethical. That is like saying, "I am concerned that people are willing to do unethical things if commanded by someone who by very nature and definition can only give ethical commands 100% of the time".

But yes, there are very valid questions like whether the alleged command came truly from the True God or not etc, especially in light of the fact that there are multiple contradictory claims of alleged sources of Divine commands. But that is a different question.; November 27, 2008 at 5:29 PM
Sunil said...: David,

Do you think there is a some sort of a difference between the questions:

1) Would you kill a child if God commanded you to?

and

2) Would you covet your neighbor's wife or commit adultery (sexual relationship outside marriage) if God commanded you?

We see in the scriptures like in case of the judgment upon Canaanite clan, flood during Noahs time, Sodom-Gomorrah etc where God destroyed large groups of people which included death of children. Also as pointed put by someone, we have the case of God asking Abraham to slay his son. God has absolute right on human life and can give or take or extend life as God chooses. Moreover, since physical death is not the ultimate end, God can extend God’s grace to the children who died like in case of children died in Noah's flood etc and take them to heaven. So, there is nothing inherent in the death of a child (due to a God's action) that is necessarily violative or against/contrary to God’s nature. The critical question here of course is whether the alleged commandment truly came from God. [regarding Dk's concern: Since the commandments of God/Jesus are in the canon of NT and in life/teachings/commandments of Jesus and since no one can claim to have a higher authority/command from God, the 'concern' of people like Dk are unfounded as far as true followers of Jesus are concerned - unless Dk has some issues with life/example/commandments of Jesus, which would be a different issue to deal with].

The case of question 2 seems to be the case (based on clear consistent teachings of OT/NT/Jesus and even basic common sense) of like asking if God can command something that is contrary to God’s nature. Or it is like asking ‘Would you do a Gods commandment, if God commanded you to do something contrary to God’s Holy/Moral nature”

Your comments?; November 27, 2008 at 5:42 PM
Nazam said...: Since David is in the mood for hypothetical questions, here is one for him to answer.

If a man is going to murder you and I pray to God directly and not through Jesus should God accept my pray or let you die?

If God does accept my pray then it would mean prays can be answered without them going through Jesus.; November 27, 2008 at 8:56 PM
Sunil said...: Nazam,

>> If a man is going to murder you and I pray to God directly and not through Jesus should God accept my pray or let you die?

May I also respond to this question please? (Sorry for intervening)

Firstly, there is no need to worry about David, because Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul ... Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows"
So regardless of whether one "prays" to an idol or to a false god proclaimed by false prophets, it will make no difference to David's safety (which is in the hands of God), but there is spiritual harm is to the one who willfully rejects the True God of OT/NT/Jesus and ‘prays’ to a false god instead. Any prayer that is not directed to the God of OT/NT/Jesus is a prayer to a false god.

Isaiah's prophecy many hundreds of years before the Jesus: "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness. From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this"
The rejection of Jesus (of OT/NT) is therefore rejection of God of OT/NT/True Prophets. The remnant or the truly God loving Jews have instantly accepted Jesus and became his followers/disciples. The case of Jews before Jesus came or those who are yet genuinely ignorant of Jesus is a different case.; November 28, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Javier said...: Sami said...
well i cant answer the Q for a simple reason, i dont believe God would ask me to do that.

How presumptious of you, apparently you possess knowledge of the omniscient and secret will of God.

now i know you want to hypothetical etc but i think you can understand this is beyond a simple hypothetical Q, i 100% dont believe God would ever ask me to do such thing, because he has taught us not to kill children in the first place!

Its quite easy. What David wants to know is if you would obey God's command because He's God and what God commands is morally binding on His creation. You would then, by denial to obey, subject Allah to a moral standard that exists outside of himself, placing yourself above God. Theres a word for this. Idolatry.

Dk said...
Let me get this straight, David, Bassam and Yahya are all prepared to follow the commands of an omnscient, omnibenevolent deity no matter how irrational and/or unethical a command may appear to be aslong as they are certain God is speaking with them.

Let me get this straight, the almighty, infallible Dk has spoken regarding the revealed religion and their views of ethics and has decided that they fail to meet his criteria for morality. Perhaps we should not obey God, and obey the great and mighty Dk. Theres a word for this too! Idolatry.

Secondly, there is nothing irrational about killing.

Thirdly, so what if you think its unethical. The whole point is that God determines ethics, it would be right for me to slice your throat if God commanded it. This is why Muslims who blew up the twin towers were consistent with their religious views. Who are you to subject Muslims to your mere opinion and attempt to bind them to it? I guess now you're the divine commander and they should obey you?

Fourthly, if one is certain that God is speaking as you said above, then one is bound to obey or suffer what the deity assures will come about if they dont.

It follows DCT is perhaps one of the most immoral theological creations ever concevied of

What does follow is that you cannot follow your own argument. At best your points are rudimentary rants of a poorly structured attack on DCT.

I get worried when I hear religious believers espouse views like this because this sort of experience does take place in the real world and as a result multiple attrocities can be cited

So what? In fact this is only demonstrating that you cannot actually argue your position but would rather beg the question. If Jews, Muslims and Christians disagree on the command to obey, it doesn't follow that the DCT is immoral, afterall you must demonstrate what ethics you can impose on their systems of thought to eliminate their ethical system. As a Christian I subject Judaism and Islam to my revealed system and they are dismissed easily.

Likewise I can subject your ethical system as a mere relativistic concept based on more emotional arguments (as we have seen) or humanist attitudes which are based on social constructs that assume a greater good which in the end beg the question.

DCT disables human morality and makes it completely obselete and void.

Perhaps we should all subject our moral constructs to the almighty Dk.

David in all seriousness, they are not only rejecting the story and themes behind Christianity (since they dislike them and find them to be irrational), but clearly they are also rejecting the evidence since it is not sufficent for them, as you find the same for Islam.

You, apparently, also have an immature understanding of the Christian reason for rejecting Islam. While there are arguments against Islam from a historical basis Christians can wholly reject Islam on the basis of revelation. Muslims on the other hand rely on Christian revelation so that an attack on Christian revelation is an attack on Muslims revelation and they damn themselves.; November 28, 2008 at 12:55 PM
e.Terminator said...: Firstly I’ld like to discuss the question posted by Mr. Wood, even if its not directed to me, but as I see there are different answers from different people.
My simple opinion is that we can’t measure God in our minds or make hypothetical commands in immagining that he commanded it. But we can only measure ,as we can, what he revealed to us from his characters and natures, and so we can’t hypothetically immagine that he commanded or will command what he didn’t, and hwat he will not command, as we Muslims believe that God’s revelation to his Prophet Muhammed PBUH was the last God revelation sa he God told us.
But I believe that we believers have to ibey God in any thing even in things that we can’t well understand, because he is all Merciful and all Knowing.
In Sura Al Baqara:
Second, in this topic I read some things that are wrong in the--of my knowledge,

{Sami Zaatari Said: “ I dont believe God would even ask me to do it in the first place.”
(Khayyam) said:Although, i agree 100% with br Sami in that God would not request us to do such a thing, said
(Yahya Hayder Seymour) said :However as Sami pointed out, God doesnt act in this way, }
I see that we can’t say what God would and what he wouldn’t do, except in things that are in contradiction of what he revealed to us from his natures and “characters”, and we can’t limit him in our minds as I said before.
Sami Zaatari Said: what happened to Abraham was the exception, hence you cant apply this to the general.
But, I disagree, it would better that you say, Abraham was an exception not the exception, and I agree when you say that we can’t apply this to the general, more we even can’t apply this especially in this case because Ismail was not a child.

David Wood Are you the sort of person who would obey God's commands, whatever they may be? Or are you the sort of person who would reject a command you didn't like?
As a Muslim I can’t believe of what I like and leave the rest, because in Sura Al Baqara: 85 God Says : “Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth pf other parts? What, then, could be the reward of those among you who do such things but ignominy in the life of this world and, on the Day of Resurrection”. I’m not here answering in the name of Brother Sami, but I’m think that any Muslim must follow God’s revelation, not your Hypothetical question.
David Wood: the Muslim eventually ends up condemning his own book, his own prophets, or his own God along the way. I just can't figure out why Muslims aren't more careful, or why they don't think through their criticisms more carefully.
I think that it’s too generic saying that Muslims aren’t more carefull,that they are condemning there God or that they don’t think in their criticism, well I think that most of christian theolgists do the same, even if I can’t disagree with you in your opinion about the Muslims that you debated with because I only saw one of your debates, but I see that brother Sami, committed here a mistake when he said that God wouldn’t ask such a thing, while he already did as mentioned by Mr. Hogan Elijah Hagbard, in the story of Prophet Moses PBUH and al Khidr, mentioned in Sura Al Kahf 60-83. And refusing this fact must be an unintentioned mistake from him, and I think that he answered without taking time to think carefully, and this is my simple opinion, I disagree with him in this point, but I agree with him in many others.

Nabeel Qureshi
It's no wonder, then, that we see Muslims often reinterpreting the evidence in order to fit their view of God.
I think this is another genreical charge twards muslims, and we also believe that christians do the same to prove the trinitarian belief, and many other christian doctrines.
Dk Jewish Talmudists blowing up Palestinian school children, the faithful Christians blowing up abortion clinics and attacking homosexuals, Muslims dying in Saudi Arabia due to the walking around of an enshrined black rock and a process of stoning "satan".
I will answer my part as a Muslim. Muslims who dies in Saui Arabia are not walking around the Black stone as you wrongly said, and they are deing due to the presence of too many people in the same place not for any other reason, and you can’t condemn religiones or God in this, because even athiests die in protests for liberty and other beliefs, and you can’t also condemn religions to be the reason of violence and you can’t except athiesm from it because athieism has violent history.
DkGod becoming a fetus and evolving as an embryo only to come out of a womens vag*** (which they find to be unclean apparently)
Who told you that we Muslims think like this?
David Wood"What? God touched a vagina? Nonsense! No amount of evidence will ever convince me of this."
No Mr. Wood, we don’t think or act like that, God touching a woman Vagina!! We Believe as you that God created it, and we can’t say that God touched or he can’t touch the womans Vagina because it’s unclean, because this is another limitation of God, Clean and unclean in our measures is not equal to God’s measures and even touching is a limitation of God, and those limitations of God are one of the reasons that make us reject the christian doctrines and the most important reason is our Believe in Islam and prophet Muhammad PBUH.
David Wood:And so their reason for rejecting the evidence is not that the evidence is weak. Their rejection is a priori.
No, we refuse the evidences because they are weak, but yes we have a prior rejection, due to our beliefs, but this is the question of any believer or athiest, every one who believes in a Religion and even Athiest have this prior rejection to others beliefs and when he get convinced with the others evidences he changes it.
DkBtw it is also a proven that Muhammad rode on a donkey throughout a celestial journey to visit Moses.
What Donkey are you talking about? this is totally false there is no donkey in this story.
Dkbut clearly they are also rejecting the evidence since it is not sufficent for them, as you find the same for Islam.
I think that you forgot to insert athiest in this speech.
Nakdimon
Well, I’m sure that the Muslims in MUMBAI were thinking the same thing yesterday, when they conconted and executed the massacre over there. You can add this up to the tally of your peaceful Islamic religion.
But when a western country, totally secular and claiming no religious basis for their acts, do certain things, then muslims will blame Christianity and they claim they have the full right too.
Even if Muslims in Mumbai thought that they doing what God commanded, then they are wrong, and Islam condemn terrorism, but when we come to the second point when you say that we blame christianity when a totally secular country acts terrorism is not true too, because we don’ condemn Christianity for China terrorism in Tibet, for example, but We Blame Crusaders not Christianity, we Blame USA and its president Bush for saying that invading Iraq is a Holy War and for the Glory of Prophet Jesus PBUH, we don’t blame christianity, because we are not Muslims if we don’t believe in Christianity and in Prophet Jesus PBUH, we condemn acts not races.
Sunil
God can extend God’s grace to the children who died like in case of children died in Noah's flood etc and take them to heaven.
From my little knoledge about christianity, I think that your believes are contrary to what you said, because every human is born as a sinner, and this sin is not eliminated except by believing that jesus is the savior and that he died on the cross for our sins and this is the only way for salvation, and so a child who didn’t believe in Jesus as the savior, die as Sinner.; November 28, 2008 at 2:46 PM
Taylor said...: In Quran 37:102, Abraham says, "O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you."

Surely a Muslim ought to be willing to kill his child if ordered by God.; December 2, 2008 at 8:33 PM