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VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

Author: Jacob Thomas on Oct 24, 2008 - 02:11 AM Women 
By Jacob Thomas



Students of the history of Islam across the last fourteen centuries cannot escape to notice the sad state of women in Islamic societies. Both in Shari鈥檃h Law and in its daily application, the inferiority of women is evident to all objective observers. With rare exceptions, compared to men, they are definitely lesser beings and are treated accordingly by both Islamic society in general and the men in their lives in particular. They are granted few, if any, rights and privileges as such would be understood in Western societies.

Such a wretched view of women in Islamic culture has not gone unnoticed by many reforming Arab intellectuals. Their long-suffering, generous hearted women, who deserve ever so much better, are in need of rescue. One website fostering improvement in the lives of Muslim women is worthy of mention It is the online website, kwtanweer, which has a special section dedicated to women. Rarely does a week goes by without an article or an essay bringing to light the shocking inconsistencies that prevail in 鈥渉usband-wife鈥 relations, as well as in other areas of women鈥檚 lives.

On 7 September, 2008, an essay appeared in kwtanweer with this striking headline:
"Violence against Women in the Qur鈥檃n, as exemplified in their Beating.鈥 FFI readers will no doubt be most interested in the rather unique and revolutionary genre of Islamic hermeneutics of the Qur鈥檃n espoused by the writer of the article. I will give, as usual, my analysis, followed by my comments. The author began with an introduction setting forth his main topic, followed by his theory based on the science of linguistics.

Introduction

鈥淭hroughout the long history of mankind, the place of women has been both problematic and enigmatic. Society has suffered from the intrusion of religion into the various areas of life, even into its most intimate details, both public and private.鈥

The Qur鈥檃n and the Maturing of the Divine Message

鈥淎ccording to the science of linguistics, there are three basic elements in discourse: the sender, the receptor, and the message. It is assumed that an ability to 鈥渂reak鈥 the code in the communication between the sender of the message and its receptor does exist. This ability includes the right of the receptor to add a new meaning to the original message, thus not allowing the sender a unilateral authority to determine its meaning. Rather, having received the message, it should be the right of all receptors, or readers, to interpret the message and apply it in their life.

鈥淎s we follow this linguistic theory, we may consider the sender as Allah, the receptors are the Muslims, and the Message is the Qur鈥檃n. Now we are in position to pose these questions: Was the sender鈥檚 message mature? Was the receptor convinced by the message? And was the message clear, and in no need of interpretation?

鈥淭he Qur鈥檃n represents itself as the last Holy Book of a monotheistic religion, namely, Islam. The divine origin of the Qur鈥檃n --- according to the claim of Muslims --- implies that it should exhibit the highest levels of maturity, wholeness, and righteousness with respect to human relations in general, and to the relations between men and women, in particular.

鈥淣ow if Islam is the apex of the Divine revelations, and if Muhammad is the seal of the Messengers and Prophets of Allah, does the Qur鈥檃n actually manifest a level of maturity that would offer solutions to the problems between men and women within the context of marriage? And does the Message possess those conditions of acceptability in its original milieu, as well as for all time and all places? Or has its Message become a victim of various illegitimate and novel readings and interpretations that are totally at variance with Allah鈥檚 intentions?!!鈥

鈥淏eating鈥 in the Qur鈥檃n

鈥淥ne of the clearest examples of the teachings of the Qur鈥檃n is the subject of 鈥渨ife-beating鈥 as it appears in Surat Al-Nisa鈥 (Women) verses 34, 35.

As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.
Marmaduke鈥檚 Translation

As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Yusuf Ali鈥檚 Translation

鈥淲e limit ourselves in this essay to the study of the bodily harm as prescribed by the Qur鈥檃n, i.e. .鈥渂eating,鈥 which is considered as a proper solution to the problems that inevitably arise between husbands and wives.鈥

The Interpretation of 鈥淎yat al-Darb (Beating)鈥

鈥淲hile the 鈥淒ivine鈥 text appears very clear, Muslim receptors of the message have offered different and varied interpretations of this Ayat. Some agree with its obvious meaning, others try to minimize the intensity of the punishment by suggesting that some women would repent merely by being kept away from the conjugal bed. Others insist that some form of beating must take place. Both Sunni and Shi鈥檌te exegetes have agreed that 鈥渂eating鈥 is clearly taught in the text, and is necessary to make women reasonable in their conduct. They only disagree as to the degree or kind of the 鈥渂eating.鈥

What the Primary Sender (Allah) had Said in His Earlier Messages

鈥淚n the Old Testament (known in Arabic as the Tawrat, or Old Testament) we have very strict standards regarding sexual sins, such as in the Book of Leviticus 21: 9

鈥淎lso the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.鈥
New American Standard Bible (漏1995)

鈥淎nd the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.鈥
King James Bible

鈥淣ow when we come to the New Testament (known in Arabic as (Injeel,) we notice a tremendous progress in the teachings regarding husband-wife relations, where we find a marked improvement in the status of women. We think, for example, of Jesus鈥 attitude towards a woman caught in adultery as related in the Gospel according to John, chapter 8

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" 6 And they were saying this, testing Him, in order that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

鈥淚n the Gospel according to Matthew, chapter 19, we read the following account:

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

鈥淲e may also refer to the Letter of Paul to the Church in the city of Ephesus, Chapter 5: verses 22-25, and notice the progress in husband-wife relations:

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it.

鈥淣ow if we take into account the thesis we have propounded above, we would expect the Qur鈥檃n to exhibit the highest level of maturity, wholeness, and righteousness with respect to human relations in general, and to family relations in particular, such as between husbands and wives.

鈥淎s we study the texts of the Jewish and Christian holy books, we find no clear reference to a physical punishment such as 鈥渂eating鈥 that should be inflicted on a wife. Now, it is true that the Old Testament books do relate severe punishments for misbehaving women, but when we come to the New Testament, we find that those punishments have totally disappeared.

鈥淏ut as we come to the Qur鈥檃n, do we find a higher level of evolution and maturity in the laws that govern husband-wife relations? Not at all! In contrast, do we find the duty of 鈥渂eating鈥 a wife in the teachings of Jesus Christ, or of his disciples after him? On the contrary, we discover this teaching as related in Mathew 5:17 鈥淭hink not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.鈥

鈥淲e expect that any message coming from the Primary Messenger, i.e. Allah, should be more understanding of the conditions of the receptors whose intellectual capabilities have been growing, and therefore are now capable to receive a more mature message. Is 鈥渂eating,鈥 as a punishment and a weapon in the hands of a man over against a woman, the only mature 鈥淒ivine鈥 method to deal with those problems that arise within the family? It has been claimed that the Qur鈥檃n came (when the Arabs were living in absolute ignorance, were prone to kill their daughters at birth, and tyrannize their wives,) in order to improve women鈥檚 conditions. However, this claim is not sustainable.

鈥淔irst of all, it is a myth that the Arabs, before Islam, were living in darkness and ignorance. We know much better than that. They, and the other nations nearby, had accomplished high levels in science and literature.

鈥淪econd, if we restrict the Qur鈥檃nic teachings to the Arabs, it follows that it becomes a book that concerns them alone, and possesses no authority for other peoples and nations who were far more advanced than the Arabs.

鈥淗ad the Qur鈥檃n been a fulfillment of the previously-given 鈥淗eavenly Messages,鈥 as the Muslims claim, it would have evidenced a higher degree of maturity, imparting final and reasonable solutions to all of mankind鈥檚 problems, including the proper way of treating women.鈥

To sum up

鈥淭herefore, we may conclude that the Qur鈥檃nic discourse was actually a purely Muhammadan message destined to offer solutions to those contemporary conditions that existed in the days of the Prophet. They derived their understanding of their society from their cultural environment. Thus, they were normative for their own time and place. The Qur鈥檃nic message did not take into account the Prime Sender, i.e., Allah whose previous messages were intended for all mankind. The message of the Qur鈥檃n manifests no proper evolution and maturity, as we discovered in its teaching about wife-beating, which was the main subject of our study. We hope to pursue this course, endeavoring to apply our main thesis to the other problems that are mentioned in the Qur鈥檃n, such as in the social, economic, and intellectual areas of life.鈥

Analysis

The writer of this essay, aided by his acquaintance with linguistics and the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, endeavored to prove that the Qur鈥檃nic teaching allowing men to beat their wives does not manifest that level maturity that is expected from Allah鈥檚 final revelation, the Qur鈥檃n. Therefore, the message of the Qur鈥檃n is purely a localized discourse meant for the Prophet鈥檚 time and place.

Comments

The author of the essay seems to be well-versed in his knowledge of linguistics and fully at home in the teachings of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. His critique of the Qur鈥檃nic teachings regarding husband and wife relations echoes some of the contributions of ordinary young Muslims who send 鈥渓etters to the editors鈥 of their favorite online media.

His 鈥渞evolutionary鈥 and novel hermeneutics of the Qur鈥檃n is rather simple. He posits the gradual nature of Allah鈥檚 revelations, expecting them to mature as history progresses, enlightenment occurs, and circumstances and conditions for all people change and improve. He sees gradations in the types and severity of punishments of law-breakers portrayed in Old and New Testament times. This being so, he concludes that by the time the Qur鈥檃n appeared in history, and after Jesus鈥 life on earth, we would have expected its teachings to be more 鈥渕ature,鈥 i.e. more humane, comparable to the change that occurred between Old Testament revelation and New Testament revelation as exemplified in Jesus.

But is this thesis actually viable? Unfortunately, this is not the case. A plain reading of Surat al-Nisa鈥 makes it clear that it refers to the punishment of wives who are suspected of disregarding the wishes of their husbands. And the command of Allah is explicit. Wives are to be kept from the conjugal bed, and they are to be beaten!

According to Marmaduke Pickthall鈥檚 translation of this Ayat, the Arabic verb 鈥渨atadrubuhunna鈥 is translated 鈥渁nd scourge them.鈥 This is a very harsh word, especially when one considers that the translator was an Englishman who converted to Islam. It is interesting to note that Yusuf Ali, a Muslim-born translator, softened the Arabic original meaning by adding several parenthetical words. His translation of the relevant phrase reads: As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly).

There is no escape from concluding that this Qur鈥檃nic teaching is extremely detrimental to Muslim wives who must live in constant fear not knowing whether their husbands would ever decide to take the Qur鈥檃nic injunction seriously. It is not only when a wife knowingly misbehaves that she can expect harsh disciplinary action from her husband. Additionally, and probably more psychologically damaging, she has always to wonder how could she ever avoid even a suspicion of disloyalty and ill-conduct?!

The essay is no doubt more shocking to many a Muslim reader, because the author accords the older Scriptures of the Christians a better rating than the Qur鈥檃n as far as the humane treatment of women is concerned by quoting the words of Christ and Paul. It is indeed a serious matter when a Muslim grants any authority to the New Testament, a holy book which, according to Islamic teachings, has been seriously corrupted.

I was pleased to note that some of the readers who responded to the essay sided with the author in defense of the women of Islam. They applauded his taking their side. In fact one respondent opined that men should be treated the same way as women, when they misbehave! They should suffer the consequences of their breaking the Shariah.

Thanks to the Internet, we are becoming more aware of the stirrings within the Arab-Muslim world regarding the inequities toward women that are enshrined in the Qur鈥檃n. We cannot but salute anyone living within Daru鈥檒 Islam who actually does something in a public forum to elicit discussion about such inequities. And encomiums are due as well to the website kwtanweer in accepting the writer鈥檚 interesting and thoughtful critique of Islam鈥檚 sacred text which is believed to have existed in heaven from all eternity on tablets of gold!

For those readers who can read Arabic, you may read the essay by going to this URL


Translation of the relevant texts from Surat 4 of the Qur鈥檃n An-Nisa鈥 (Women)

Marmaduke鈥檚 Translation


34. Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

35. And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.

Yusuf Ali Translation


34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

35. If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.


VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING | Log-in or register a new user account | 26 Comments
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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

(Score: 1)
by Marie on Oct 24, 2008 - 11:34 AM
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鈥淏eating鈥 in the Qur鈥檃n

鈥淥ne of the clearest examples of the teachings of the Qur鈥檃n is the subject of 鈥渨ife-beating鈥 as it appears in Surat Al-Nisa鈥 (Women) verses 34, 35.

"As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.
Marmaduke鈥檚 Translation"

"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Yusuf Ali鈥檚 Translation"

That means if they disobey their husbands, then their husbands are to beat them into submission. This basically means break their will and spirit into submission by treating them like a worthless human being whose life has no value.

"鈥淭herefore, we may conclude that the Qur鈥檃nic discourse was actually a purely Muhammadan message destined to offer solutions to those contemporary conditions that existed in the days of the Prophet. They derived their understanding of their society from their cultural environment. Thus, they were normative for their own time and place. The Qur鈥檃nic message did not take into account the Prime Sender, i.e., Allah whose previous messages wee intended for all mankind. The message of the Qur鈥檃n manifests no proper evolution and maturity, as we discovered in its teaching about wife-beating, which was the main subject of our study. We hope to pursue this course, endeavoring to apply our main thesis to the other problems that are mentioned in the Qur鈥檃n, such as in the social, economic, and intellectual areas of life.鈥

Here is the maturity of Islam.

Roman women while seen as inferior in their culture did have some privileges like receiving a good education and they did have an influential role in the development of their culture. The education of wealthy Roman women was important because they were responsible for passing knowledge onto their sons. Lower-class women received enough education to run a small business, work as dress makers, and salespeople in the markets. There were Roman women who did work outside of the house as lawyers, doctors, teachers, and secretaries, although this was rare. In the Hadrian era women were allowed to own land, run businesses, and inherit wealth.

In Africa tribal women were allowed to fight and lead men in wars.

In Christianity, Jesus did have women disciples and he gave women the dignity and respect they deserved. In early Christianity women women had important roles in the Church as leaders, traveling ministers, assistants to the apostles, in charity work, and as deaconessses. Women still have important and influential roles in the modern Church as ministers, deaconesses, lectures, treasurers, secretaries, and teachers.

In the western world men and women are treated as equals and women have the option of working outside of the home. Western women hold high positions in their governments as prime ministers,senators, congresswomen, and as presidents of their own countries. Western women are treated with respect and dignity, and it is a crime to beat and rape them. Men who commit these crimes against women are thrown in prison.

In Islam women are treated like inferior animals and has no rights. In Islam it is ok to treat women like sh*t, force them to wear the burqa, stay in the house, refuse their right to an education, to treat them like prostitutes, beat and rape them and refer to them as vagina. This is the maturity of Islam.



Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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by Ibn Kammuna (ibnkammuna@aol.com) on Oct 24, 2008 - 11:59 AM
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The Arabic article is very interestin. The author makes two points very clear:
1. Islam did not form a "progress" in civilisation to Arab tribes of pre-Islamic times.
2. Islam cannot be seen as a continuation of the Judeo-Christina tradition.

Both points are valid.

  • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

    (Score: 1)
    by Marie on Oct 24, 2008 - 12:31 PM
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    Islam did not form a progress to anything as can be seen in Islamic countries.

    Islam is not a continuation of the Judeo-Christian tradition because Judaism with all it's laws about how to treat an adulterous women and exc, does extend dignity and respect to women. Just look at the influential and important roles women had in the Old Testament or Torah. As I stated before Jesus had women disciples following him during his travels and they supported Jesus and the apostles in anyway they could. Paul even stated that women are to be treated with respect, while he did say women are to submit to their husbands, he also stated that men and women are to not have power and control over each other and both men and women are equal.

    1 Corinthians 11:1-12

    1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

    Propriety in Worship
    2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a] just as I passed them on to you.
    3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head鈥攊t is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

    11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.



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    • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

      (Score: 1)
      by Grimace on Oct 24, 2008 - 01:17 PM
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      He also said (in the same letter you quoted) that women shouldn't speak in church, because it's not their place to do so:

      1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV)
      "women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

      Islam is worse, but if you were to go by the BIble like Muslims go by the Qur'an, women would still not be that well off. They certainly wouldn't have the rights they do now in the US.

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      • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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        by Ibn Kammuna (ibnkammuna@aol.com) on Oct 24, 2008 - 01:48 PM
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        Hell Grimace
        I usually do try to not comment on people who comment about the Bible here. Most of them do not know how to understand things, you included, and have no background in biblical studies. The verse from Corinthians was written for specific circumstances in a very specific church and situation. Generalizing that to all times and places is a big jump that is not justified all. Take care brother/sister.

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        • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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          by Grimace on Oct 24, 2008 - 09:14 PM
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          Hi Ibn Kammuna,
          I actually do have quite a background in studying the Bible -- I went to Catholic School for 13 years. The KJV is like an old friend to me, although I actually don't like that translation very much. I'm not a Biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but I am familiar with it. And when it comes right down to it, every part of the Bible was written for a particular place, time, and audience. I was merely pointing out to Marie that selective quoting to illustrate a point is falling into the same trap as the "moderate" Muslims. But there are ample illustrations of women being treated as property in the Bible -- I just chose one that was in the same letter she quoted as showing respect to women.

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          • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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            by Ibn Kammuna (ibnkammuna@aol.com) on Oct 25, 2008 - 08:52 AM
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            Thank you Grimace for sharing this. Anything about women in Christianity should be tied to Christ's teachings in Mathew 19:3-6. If you add Ephesians 5:22-25, you'll see that women in Christianity are man's equal and partner in life.
            It is frustrating to me to see people comment here tying the Jewish-Christian tradition with Islam. It should not. I mean Islam should not be viewed as in the same line. In fact the very concept of "God" and "Allah" are two very different concepts. Most people take them to be the same, when they are as different as day and night. Peace

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            • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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              by Grimace on Oct 25, 2008 - 06:05 PM
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              Indeed, that is the problem with the Bible. It is extremely inconsistent. In any case, I agree with you that Islam and the Judeo-Christian traditions are very different, regardless of what Muslims (or anyone else) says. The only thing they have in common is the belief that they are the right path, but they go about it in drastically different ways as a result of their "founders."

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    • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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      by Marie on Oct 25, 2008 - 09:08 AM
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      If that was the case then I and my fellow women would not be allowed to do Bible readings during church service, be an elder, and I would not be allowed to become a Church Deaconess.

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      • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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        by Grimace on Oct 25, 2008 - 06:12 PM
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        The problem with having a holy book that was written by humans is that just because you ignore the parts you don't like doesn't make them go away.

        Now if your church has removed the old testament from your bibles, and you only go by the new testament, then that's a very different story. The new testament is very different from the old, and I think were every Christian religion to discard the old testament completely, we'd be a lot better off. The problem is that Christians aren't willing to take that step, because they believe that a group of Catholic bishops back in the 5th century knew what they were doing when they compiled the books of the Bible. In fact, that Christians in general believe the "God" of the old testament is the same as the "God" of the new testament baffles my understanding. I asked pretty much every religious teacher I had when I was going to school why they were so different, and the answer that I always got was "God's wisdom defies our understanding," which to me is a cheap cop-out.

        Anyway, it sounds like your church is more egalitarian than most. Your pastors are probably even able to marry. I grew up with the Catholic church, which did not (and does not) have a great deal of respect for women (or altar boys). So yeah, maybe you guys choose to interpret the BIble in a more feminist-friendly way. But that doesn't mean there isn't misogyny in it.

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        • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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          by Marie on Oct 27, 2008 - 02:49 PM
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          "The problem with having a holy book that was written by humans is that just because you ignore the parts you don't like doesn't make them go away."

          What indication did I give you that I was ignoring other parts of the Bible? Remember Paul had some very interesting situations to deal with in the Church and he had to say something to fix each problem or else the Church's would have disintegrated.

          "Now if your church has removed the old testament from your bibles, and you only go by the new testament, then that's a very different story. The new testament is very different from the old, and I think were every Christian religion to discard the old testament completely, we'd be a lot better off. The problem is that Christians aren't willing to take that step, because they believe that a group of Catholic bishops back in the 5th century knew what they were doing when they compiled the books of the Bible. In fact, that Christians in general believe the "God" of the old testament is the same as the "God" of the new testament baffles my understanding. I asked pretty much every religious teacher I had when I was going to school why they were so different, and the answer that I always got was "God's wisdom defies our understanding," which to me is a cheap cop-out."

          No my Church has not removed the Old Testament from the Bibles because they contain prophesy of the coming of Jesus, the creation and fall of humanity, and the story of the Jewish people. Besides what you are saying is the Jews and Christians do not worship the same God and Christianity is not an offshoot of Judaism. Why does the God of the Old Testament act so different from the God of the New Testament? Well there are reasons as to why God acts different in Old Testament and why he acts different in the New Testament, but I will not get in to these reasons right now because it would be too time consuming and take up a lot of space ( I sincerely mean this, I am not giving a cheap cop-out ).

          "Anyway, it sounds like your church is more egalitarian than most. Your pastors are probably even able to marry. I grew up with the Catholic church, which did not (and does not) have a great deal of respect for women (or altar boys). So yeah, maybe you guys choose to interpret the BIble in a more feminist-friendly way. But that doesn't mean there isn't misogyny in it."

          I am a Lutheran so yes our pastors are able to marry and we do not interprete the Bible in a more feminist-friendly way and I never said there was no misogyny in it.


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      • Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

        (Score: 1)
        by Marie on Oct 27, 2008 - 03:43 PM
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        Grimace we don't interprete the Bible in a more feminist friendly way. Yes there is misogyny in the Bible which mostly in the Old Testment and Paul did say somethings about how women should be treated, but like I said before Paul's decrees where situational. As for misogyny in the Old Testament there is one explanation for this: The Jews wanted more rules and regulations then what God already gave them ( 10 commandments ) and God made up more rules to just to make them happy and that is why these practices were abolished in the New Testament.

        Regards to how women in the Bible, while there is misogyny in the Bible, but lets no forget there were women in the Old Testament who had influential and important roles, like Sarah, Rachel, Ruth, Naomi, Esther, and exc., who shaped the history of the Bible. Women had important roles in the New Testament and early Christianity. Like I said before Jesus had women who were followers and disciples, but there was also his mother Mary who risked the possibility of being stone to death because in 1st century Judea women were stoned to death for sexual immorality or being pregnant and unmarried ( I am not saying Mary was not a virgin or sexually active outside of marriage ). Mary showed great strength and courage for giving birth to Jesus. The woman at the well was the first person whom Jesus revealed himself as the Christ ( John 4:1-26 ). After his resurrection the first people he showed himself to were women. Women were also instrumental in helping Paul with his ministry and he made a reference to Phoebe a servant in Christ ( the first deaconess ) and other women in Romans 16:1-16. Women were also leaders in the first Churches and opened their homes for Christian worship.There is also evidence to suggest women were ordained as priests and bishops in the early Church, but later on male bishops passed decrees preventing women from officiating at the alter.

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

(Score: 1)
by socratese on Oct 24, 2008 - 12:00 PM
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voilence ,intolerece ,hate ,ignorece are basic charactersitis of islam.Voilence is licenced by mad Quron to slave psych islamists.

Ancient Traditional Massage

(Score: 1)
by notoriousprophet on Oct 24, 2008 - 09:04 PM
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Dear Jacob Tomas,
You must understand wife beating in Islam is actually an ancient traditional massage that a man can offer his wife. It is also some kind of appreciation from a Muslims man to his beloved wife or wives.

You see, during Mohammad's time; the Muslims man believe that by beating their wives living daylights, it helps to improve blood circulation for the wives. Not only it benefits the women, but wife beating also offers a better way of exercise for man. And for some Muslims men like to shout on the top of their lungs while enjoying beating their beloved wife or wives. Well doctors believe it provides relaxation 3 times more than those Muslims man prefer silence during the executions.

Do you understand why wife beating is widely spread and practiced among the Muslims family now ? If you do, kindly make all the infidel women who have some intention to marry Muslims man understand it before they psychically enjoy it ok ?

The Noble Quran????????????

(Score: 1)
by islamic chimp on Oct 25, 2008 - 12:32 AM
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I find it very funny when women say that Islam truely liberates women. Islam does not give a status to women higher than that of Cattle. While not all Muslim men give in to beating their wives, we cannot forget that the provision for beating wives is there in the Quran and the Sunnah. Propbably the so called forward looking Muslims are just too embaressed to accept the Sunnah of their prophet!
I find it very funny that Muslim women of all people claim that Islam gives them rights which are not enjoyed by women of any other religion. I wonder whether those women are really aware of Islam, or are they just blind to accept the facts for what they are in reality.
I dont say that others cultures have been very kind to women, but Hello! we are talking about God's own religion.
We need to make muslims, especially the converts, think critically because unless they do so they will accept every injustice that is inflicted on them as a verdict from Allah.

Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

(Score: 1)
by islamic chimp on Oct 26, 2008 - 01:40 AM
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Judge Islam by what they do and by not what they say
http://www.muhammadtube.com/video/2445/Iranian-Muslims-telling-their-story-with-islam

Watch this video to see the love and compassion of muslims

Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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Re: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE QUR鈥橝N AS EXEMPLIFIED IN THEIR BEATING

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