A Review of the Paul-Green Debate

On the 9th of July, Paul Bilal Williams of the Muslim Debate Initiative held a (historic) debate with the Reverend Chris Green, vice-principle of Oak Hill Christian college. The topic of discussion centered on Jesus, just who was he? Was he God? Was he God incarnate? And did he come to die for the sins of mankind? Or was he simply a Muslim prophet, a prophet who taught about monotheism, and salvation that did not necessitate his death and resurrection.

In my view, the debate rested on 2 key points:

1-聽聽聽 The historicity and reliability of John鈥檚 Gospel

2-聽聽聽 The death of Jesus

Starting with the first point, throughout Green鈥檚 presentation, he would use references from the Gospel of John, to which Paul responded back to by showing the scholarly (Christian included) evidence that the Gospel of John is not viewed as an authentic historical account of Jesus鈥 life. Rather, the Gospel of John is a highly interpretive account by the author in question, who placed his own theological formed beliefs on Jesus, so the prologue of John, the I AM sayings, and many other sayings regarding Jesus were not actual statements uttered by Jesus. But rather were the interpretive theological beliefs of John, who placed such sayings onto Jesus in a way to deify Jesus and make him into a divine figure.

Reverend Green never disputed this argument by Paul, rather he stated that there were scholars who disputed this view, though he didn鈥檛 name any, and ironically a scholar he did name, Richard Baukham, happened to agree with Paul鈥檚 position!

Paul didn鈥檛 merely rely on name-dropping scholars, but demonstrated the argument to the audience by contrasting John with the other three Gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke). Paul showed how many of the major sayings in John, which Green relied on to prove Jesus鈥 divinity, do not exist in the earlier Gospels, and this obviously poses a lot of problems. If Jesus actually made the statements we find in the Gospel of John, then why do all other 3 earlier Gospels have them missing? Green never really came up with any meaningful response to this problem.

More to this point, Paul demonstrated how the earliest Gospel, the Gospel of Mark, shows a very human Jesus, a Jesus that is not all knowing, a Jesus that distinguishes himself from God, and a Jesus who teaches the people to follow the commandments to be saved by God.

The second point in which Paul caught Green on was concerning Jesus鈥 death, Paul turned the books on Green, by quoting from the writings of Paul, which Green originally used. Paul showed how the writings of the Apostle Paul taught that God is IMMORTAL, and yet as we all know Jesus was not immortal as he died. Paul made it very simple for everybody, Immortal means one does not die, Jesus died, and therefore he is not immortal, very simple and logical. The response from the Christian side was beyond weak and sadly turned into the same routine we have always seen, which is trying to twist and turn, and trying to change the meanings of something simple, and to make the text say something it doesn鈥檛, so immortal doesn鈥檛 really mean immortal, or Jesus dying isn鈥檛 really dying etc. Basically 1 doesn鈥檛 mean 1, and 1 plus 1 doesn鈥檛 equal 2, and a square isn鈥檛 really a square etc.

Obviously many other points were raised, but for me personally, these main 2 points sealed the deal, and demonstrated beyond a doubt that Jesus was no God as our evangelical friends try to assert.

25 thoughts on “A Review of the Paul-Green Debate

  1. why the christian high context and low context argument doesnt work

    quote:
    I鈥檓 not convinced by this 鈥渉igh-context鈥/鈥漧ow-context鈥 argument. Alleged 鈥渉igh-context鈥 didn鈥檛 stop the epistle writers from appealing to the Hebrew Scriptures to make and clinch their arguments. They had no difficulty referring to Adam and Eve, Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Esau, Moses, etc.. If the Christian community was 鈥渉igh-context鈥 and everyone knew everything about the historical Jesus鈥 words and deeds, then those words and deeds would have been used as trump cards in arguments precisely because they were well-known and Jesus was the foremost authority. If the community was 鈥渓ow-context鈥 then Epistle writers would have had an incentive to try to teach, validate, and spread the precious tradition as the support for their claims. The difference would be that a 鈥渉igh-context鈥 reference would look more like 鈥淛esus said/did X, therefore my argument about [circumcision, resurrection of the dead, whatever] is correct,鈥 while a low-context reference would look more like 鈥淛esus said X, which was vouchsafed to us by John Mark, the companion of Peter the disciple of Jesus.鈥

    The phenomenon that historicists need to explain is the fact that Jesus was simultaneously the primary object of reverence and worship, and a nonentity when it came to his words and deeds. Usually human beings who are revered are revered for something like heroic deeds, great teachings, a reputation for mystical enlightenment or magical power, and so on. Name any 鈥済reat鈥 person (Alexander of Macedon, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Napoleon, Hatshepsut, Aristotle, etc.) and anyone who is familiar with them can identify at least in vague fashion what was 鈥済reat鈥 about them. In the case of Jesus, his own worshipers in the Epistolary record cannot provide any reason or motive for their lofty view of the man, as a man. They make no appeal to his wisdom or his miracles or his bravery or any human deed or word. Instead, their devotion centers entirely on theological interpretations of his crucifixion and alleged resurrection, without hardly any explanation as to why he was special enough for his crucifixion to matter.

  2. about the i am statements. THERE WOULD have been MANY OCCASSIONS WHERE the synoptic writers would have USED the sayings in john to prove thier beliefs that thier god in flesh was more than a man . that is if they believed that jesus was more than a man and mark didnt believe he was more than a man. one would think that the synoptic writers would rewrite and include the i am statements in thier accounts like they twist and derive ideas from ot, but no. all 3 synoptic writers didn’t have enough space to include the i am speeches or SUMMARIZE them in thier accounts? johns gospels is the one christian evangelists love with all thier hearts and soul trying to prove to the world what a pagan jesus of johns gospel was. it always makes me wonder what christianity would have looked like if only mark was the dominant gospel and all the other 3 died. johns gospel has jesus going around telling ppl how awesome he is and how is the awaited messiah, in the others he keeps all this information hidden in parabolic gibberish which cannot be understood by his inner circle so he goes in a house and interprets what he said in open.did any biographer of m luther king leave out his ” i have a dream…” statements?

  3. the quote below is refering to the pauline writings and how they are SILENT on the deeds of the man .

    quote:

    The phenomenon that historicists need to explain is the fact that Jesus was simultaneously the primary object of reverence and worship, and a nonentity when it came to his words and deeds. Usually human beings who are revered are revered for something like heroic deeds, great teachings, a reputation for mystical enlightenment or magical power, and so on. Name any 鈥済reat鈥 person (Alexander of Macedon, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Napoleon, Hatshepsut, Aristotle, etc.) and anyone who is familiar with them can identify at least in vague fashion what was 鈥済reat鈥 about them. In the case of Jesus, his own worshipers in the Epistolary record cannot provide any reason or motive for their lofty view of the man, as a man. They make no appeal to his wisdom or his miracles or his bravery or any human deed or word. Instead, their devotion centers entirely on theological interpretations of his crucifixion and alleged resurrection, without hardly any explanation as to why he was special enough for his crucifixion to matter.

  4. You can critisize Christianity all you like about contradictions about the gospel, at the end of the day Islam fails FUNDAMENTALLY on its salvation plan: HOW is someone saved in islam? By the grace of God – an all-loving and thus all-merciful being who loved mankind so greatly that he was willing to make a sacrifice as the only way out for us, else we face the justice of eternal separation from God. Or, does God simply write-off the sins of Martin because he killed 5 innocent non-muslims kamikazee-style? If you yourself are a muslim: are you sure you’re saved? Has God written-off and forgotten about your sins because you outnumbered them with ‘good deeds’? Where do you draw the line? Seems to me that no matter what good you do, you’ll remain forever tainted – forever contaminated – with sins that must face the justice of the ultimate judge of all, unless your sins are accounted for. Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross, innocent, for those sins of mine and yours… choose to believe otherwise and reject this most precious gift at your own peril, just like the atheist who denies God & refuses to wager for Hope. Alas, wrong or right, by sharing what is claimed by far more sources to be the truth, than is the Quran, I’m sure that my job here is done. May God will be the judge. Peace

  5. “an all-loving and thus all-merciful being who loved mankind so greatly that he was willing to make a sacrifice as the only way out for us, else we face the justice of eternal separation from God”

    an “all knowing” ? your ignorant and not all knowing jesus WENT TO A FIG tree to FIND if it had ANY FRUIT . NOT only was jesus IGNORANT OF WHAT THE FIG TREE had on it, he was ALSO ignorant of the fact that the fig tree didn’t produce figs BECAUSE IT WASN’T THE SEASON FOR figs

    http://unveiling-christianity.org/2012/02/12/jesus-was-hungry/

    so lets see, when one of your gods attributes were disabled/incapacitated, were u worshiping a disableD and incapacitated god? did this dumb and foolish god of yours FORSAKE his atributes like all knowing , all merciful all powerful ect to die for sinners like u? if your god was iGNORANT of what the fig tree had on it , then how was he COMPLETE/ FULLY allknowing? he sacrificed his finite bits to his infinite being whEN his finite being was INCAPACITATED .

    SO god gave up flesh/meat/skin for you and kept all his powers to full charge, no forsaking or givining up his powers just his meat and skin.

    god made “sacrifice” for you because he gave you emotion and desire to sin in the first place, he gave you a MEMORY to recall your sins . he did not eternally seperate himself from himself , he only jumped into a body, punished himself and then rewarded himself by seating himself on the right side of his other person.

    all you got to do is kiss your gods flesh for as long as you live otherwise you will get your flesh and soul destroyed in hell eternally .

    god is “willingly” making a “sacrifice” to his infinite perSONS. to appease them because they are blood thirsty

    http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/god-driven-by-blood-suffering-and-death.html

  6. “Has God written-off and forgotten about your sins because you outnumbered them with 鈥榞ood deeds鈥? Where do you draw the line?”

    so your god created 100 percent flesh, got it beaten th e s hit out of , and you continue to kis s your gods a ss as a long as u live otherwise you are going to get a drubbing in hell

    tell me, how does imagining a gods “sacrifice” for you fix things for you? you don’t look at women who expose their flesh? you have jesus’ puny “sacrificE” how does his puny “sacrifice” stop u from not recalling sin in your thoughts and actions? you preach crap and continue to sin in both THOUGHT AND ACTION and sin is PART of your thought and action so how does a god taking your sins BACK in time and applying it on his meat like moisturiser fix anything for you? you people are the biggest SINNERS known to man

  7. erasmus says:

    In Islam Allah doesn’t bind himself by his own acts to save anyone. A Muslim can obey Shariah from morning to evening every day of his life and Allah can throw him in to hell if he so chooses.

    “an 鈥渁ll knowing鈥 ? your ignorant and not all knowing jesus WENT TO A FIG tree to FIND if it had ANY FRUIT . NOT only was jesus IGNORANT OF WHAT THE FIG TREE had on it, he was ALSO ignorant of the fact that the fig tree didn鈥檛 produce figs BECAUSE IT WASN鈥橳 THE SEASON FOR figs”

    Jesus could not have been truly human if he had known everything. He couldn’t have lived long enough on the earth to have aquired all possible human knowledge of his day and also fulfill his mission. He would have neglected his mission in order to spend all his time studying botany.

  8. anon says:

    …….a rock and a hard place…..
    If God does not die….then the whole concept of crucification gets into trouble—on the other hand If God does die—then the whole concept of God is in trouble!!!! its really lose-lose…..either way…..

  9. erasmus says:

    PW said “and yet you believe this person who had such limited knowledge was also God?!”

    Both natures retain their characteristics at the incarnation, human nature : limited human knowledge, , divine nature: divine knowledge.

    anon said: “If God does not die鈥.then the whole concept of crucification gets into trouble鈥攐n the other hand If God does die鈥攖hen the whole concept of God is in trouble!!!! its really lose-lose鈥..either”

    It does not say that God died in my Bible. Neither does it say that the Son of God died. Are you constructing a straw man?

    How do you define the “death” of God hypothetically?

  10. “jsus khrist was crucified on the cross, innocent, for those sins of mine and yours鈥 choose to believe otherwise and reject this most precious gift at your own peril, just like the atheist who denies God & refuses to wager for Hope. ”

    an analogy

    A man walks into your home, beaten and bloody, and tells you that he’s just saved your life and the lives of your family. His father, he tells you, was upset that you and your wife engaged in swearing, let’s say, and was going to come and kill you, your wife and all of your children and grandchildren. But this man, this jesus, convinced his father to kill him instead? This jesus was beaten to a pulp and nailed to a cross, just to save you! Fortunately, though, he was magically revived so he could come and give you the good news that his father will no longer try to kill you and your family. As long as you and your family all kneel down and kiss his (jesus’) ass every day, and you and your family, and all of your descendents, all pay jesus 10% of every dollar you earn (before taxes), for the rest of time. And if any of you don’t do this, his father will come and burn down your home, with you inside

  11. Moshey says:

    Erasmus says “It does not say that God died in my Bible. Neither does it say the Son of God died.” check well that your Bible surely has these passages: “If he spare not HIS OWN SON, but delievered him up for all of us….It is Christ Jesus that died…”(Romans 8:32-34, RSV, Emphasis mine) “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more now that we are reconciled, we shall be saved by his life” (Romans 5:10, Emphasis mine). The Trinity: The Father = God,The Holy Spirit = God, The Son = God. The Bible (quoted above): The Son died!! You also say: “How do you define the “death” of God hypothetically?” Obviously it is up to trinitarians to play the Bible to ‘define’ the ‘death’ of thier god (‘The Son of God’) since the Bible itself fails to define whether the death of the son was real or ‘hypothetical’. If you dared and say that the death of your god was REAL (literal), then this god of yours could not be REAL God as the REAL God is immortal (Ezekiel 28:9, Romans 1:23,1 Timothy 1:17, 6:16). And, if you dared and say that the death of your god was NOT REAL (was ‘hyphothetical’, ‘metaphorical etc) then your ‘salvation’ is NOT REAL (it is ‘hypothetical’, metaphorical). I wish that you dare a mid-way definition :D

  12. erasmus says:

    OK the Son died. All it means is that the physical body of Jesus died and was separated from his soul. He ceased to be a complete human being. Just has any human being dies. Nothing more. The divine, immortal, nature of Jesus was not changed or diminished by the process of death.

    There is also a spiritual dimension to the death of Jesus through his becoming accursed and being made sin. Adam also died in this manner after he sinned. “In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”. Adam continued to live after God declared him to be dead.

    Anon or Moshey please tell me how the concept of God or the crucifixion is rendered invalid by the death of Jesus. This is your claim so please back it up with some evidence.

    • OnlyOne says:

      If one part of Jesus can die and the other part cannot die, to me you are talking about two entities and makes the trinity 4 in One instead of 3 in One.

      ONE NATURE OF JESUS MORTAL AND ONE NATURE OF JESUS IMMORTAL.

      MORTAL AND IMMORTAL ARE OPPOSITE and therefore can not I repeat never can be attributed to one same entity.

      GOD IS ONE AND IMMORTAL.( If part of God can die as you stated, it does not matter how you define death, that part becomes immortal and therefore can not be God).

      IMMORTAL is an immunity from death.

      How can you have a part of God mortal and a part of God immortal?

      If the part of the son that died is not God but fully man, then God did not die for your sins. Why is christians keep telling us God or his son has to come down to suffer and die for their sins?

      God could have chosen a man not himself or his son and make him pure to die for the sins of the world. WHY? because you said the part of GOD that died is fully man.

      If you tell me Jesus is God and died for your sin. It can never be correct because God does not DIE no matter how you define death.

      Did Moses,Solomon,Abraham, Noah,Joseph,David,etc peace be upon them all taught their followers God is 3 in One and died for their sins?

      Did this prophets taught their followers their salvation depend on the death of Jesus?

      Did the followers of all prophets before Jesus worshipped Jesus?

      Salvation was the same before and after Jesus, that’s to believe in One God and submit yourself to do his will.

      Why is it in the middle of GOD’s creation in existence, then GOD will change his method of salvation through believe in the death of Jesus?

      Christians say, they are sure to be saved by believing Jesus died for their sins. If that is true, then how about a christian who truely has that believe but commited adultry, murder, armed robbery and died. (Do not tell me a christian will not do that, every religion in this world has got some of its members committing these type of sins)

      WILL THIS BELIEVE SAVE HIM.

      If yes, then the christian believe has opened a flood gate for people to be committing sins thinking they are saved by their believe.

      If no, by committing these sins, the christian will be purnished, then christian believe that the blood of Jesus is the only way wipe ones sin does not hold, since whether you believe Jesus died for your sin or not once you commit the above mentioned sins and died you will be purnished.

  13. Moshey says:

    @ erasmus, thank you for the acknowledgement that the second person of the trinity, the Son, died. And, to my knowledge, the Bible no where states that it was only some ‘human flesh/nature that the Son took upon himself’ died and not the Son himself.To reiterate, the Bible simply states:”If he spare not HIS OWN SON….It is Jesus Christ that died…” (Romans8: 32-34). Therefore, keep to yourself all your personal, non-biblical, attempt at explaining away the Biblically attested death of the Son (the 2nd person of your truine-god). You wrote:”Anon or Moshey tell me how the concept of God or the crucifixion is rendered invalid by the death of Jesus.” Note that it is not the concept of God but the concept of the godhood of Jesus Christ that is rendered invalid by his biblically attested death. And it is not the hypothetical concept of the crucifixion but that of the Christian salvation that is at stake. First, it is not the nature of God to taste death according to the Bible – “God cannot die” (Romans 1:23) God “who alone has immortality” (1 Timothy 1:17, 6:16). Ezekiel 28:9 states:”Will you say before him that slayed you: I am God? But YOU ARE A MAN NOT GOD in the hand of him who wounded you”(Emphasis mine). So, God cannot even be wounded let alone be slayed (killed). Second, if the slayed victim was anything other than real mortal human that descended from Adam (peace be upon him) with inherited adamaic mortality, such a crucified victim himself seriously needs all forms of salvation from God. Remember that the crucified victim referred to himself as “Ben Adam” meaning ‘Son (descendant) of Adam, rendered in your English Bible as ‘Son of Man’, no less than 80 times. Jesus Christ was a seed (fruit of the loins) of the human Prophet Abraham (Genesis 13: 3 compared with Acts 3:24), was a seed, fruit of the loins of the human Prophet David (Acts2:24-29, Romans 1:2-3). To sum up, the Son (2nd person of the trinity) cannot be God as he was mortal. And, as quite human mortal that descended from Adam, Jesus Christ himself needs salvation from the Immotal, Perfect, God Almighty.

  14. “OK the Son died.”

    actually the son didn’t die. if the son is omnipresent like the father and the spirit then he would be everywhere. so if the son transferred himself to hell , he would be there before his incapacitated/disabled version got there.

    how do you define death? death does not mean to COMPLETELY cease to EXIST like athiests believe, death means to transfer from ONE place to the other and the person who dies has COMPLETELY LEFT the earth, but you cannot say that the son is cosmic form COMPLETELY left the EARTH because you believe that the trinitarian persons were everywhere. josif smith believes that god can also be in excrement and has no problem with it.

  15. and don’t come out with the trash christian talk that COMPLETE god or FULLY god DIED. you believe COMPLETE/FULLY god didn’t die, it was the hypostatis of the father person PUNISHING the living day lights out of the son person and the holy spirit was watching like bystander. it would be ILLOGICAL to say “god DIED” .you ppl never SAY “COMPLETE/fully god died for a few hours.”

  16. anon says:

    If God dies (Deicide–killing God) then ofcourse God cannot be immortal–this argument is understood—right?
    If God does not die—then the concept that the crucifixion/salvation is based on becomes problematic because the Christian concept is BASED on the idea that God requires a “sacrifice” to forgive original sin. This sacrifice is Jesus Christ—and the reason that Jesus had to be divine(God incarnate)—-otherwise the Jewish sacrifices of a goat or heifer would have worked as well—but no—the sacrifice had to be Jesus Christ because of his divinity.—That was the purpose WHY God had to incarnate. —and that is the reason that in Christinaity God does not incarnate repeatedy into various forms of creation such as a tree or a cow or another human—-( in Hinduism–God repeatedly incarnates)—the one-time event of incarnation in Christinity is for the sole purpose of sacrifice for original sin. (and “sacrifice” here means “offerring life “)
    If only the human Jesus dies—then any human sacrifice would have sufficed—There is no purpose for God to incarnate into a human. Nor is there a reason why the incarnation be limited to Jesus Christ alone—one can say that all the animal sacrifices of Judaism during the Temple period were “incarnations of God”.

    In order for the “sacrifice” to have any meaning within a Christian context—-God has to die.—-otherwise a whole host of other problems arise for this doctrine…..

  17. erasmus says:

    “In order for the 鈥渟acrifice鈥 to have any meaning within a Christian context鈥-God has to die.鈥-otherwise a whole host of other problems arise for this doctrine鈥..”

    What happens then if God “dies” according to your understanding of this event, if it were possible?

    You keep talking about something that either you are unable to define or you refuse to define. On what basis is there supposed to be a discussion if you refuse to define your terms?

    • Paul clearly stated that God alone possesses immortality. 聽聽

      鈥楪od who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honour and eternal dominion. Amen.鈥

      (1Tim 6:15-16).

      Immortal means God does not die. Therefore, anyone who believes that Jesus died cannot believe that Jesus is God. Such a belief would contradict what Paul says here. Furthermore, to say that God died is a blasphemy against God. Who would run the world if God died? So Paul believed that God does not die.

      Paul also said in the passage that God dwells in unapproachable light 鈥 that no one has seen God or can see him. Paul knew that many people had seen Jesus.聽Yet Paul can say that no one has seen God because Paul was sure that Jesus is not God.

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