| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by em枚fine2(f): 1:23am On Jan 09, 2012 |
[Q]: Why do Muslims pray 5 times a day? What I actually mean is if there is a significance behind the number 5 in Islam? [Q]: Also I heard that having 6 daughters is a blessing in Islam. Is that true or false?[Q]: Are muslims allowed to listen to music? Or are they only allowed to listen to particular kinds of music (sorry if the question sounds daft  but that's what I've heard from another source  ) Thanks in advance tbaba1234 and I wish you a belated happy New Year  Oh and thanks for that informative article in post #157. Sorry if these questions have been asked before. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 10:09am On Jan 09, 2012 |
em枚fine:
[Q]: Why do Muslims pray 5 times a day? What I actually mean is if there is a significance behind the number 5 in Islam?
We pray five times a day because we have been commanded to by Allah. There is no extra significance to the number 5 or any number. The rules of sharee鈥檃h may be divided into two categories: those which may be understood on a rational basis; and those which are purely worship, the wisdom behind which is concealed from us and is not mentioned in either the Qur鈥檃an or the Sunnah. Examples of the first include: the prohibition on alcohol and gambling. Allaah has told us the reason why they are forbidden, which is: 鈥淪haytaan (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic /drugs) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allaah and from As鈥慡alaah (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?鈥 [al-Maa'idah 5:91] Fasting O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may [learn] self-restraint (Surah baqarah : 183) (The original Arabic word translated here as self-restraint is taqwa, which has a much broader significance. It symbolizes that basic mortal quality that demarcates the line between morality and amorality, and distinguishes humans from animals as moral beings. It represents love of good with an eagerness to respond to it, and a strong desire to keep away from what is evil and harmful. ) And there are other similar rulings. Examples of the second kind includes offering prayers at stipulated times. What is mentioned in the question falls into this second category, which is things for which we do not know the reason from the Qur鈥檃an or Sunnah(way of the prophet), so we have to submit to the command of Allaah. This applies to all such rulings. The Muslim has to accept the things for which Allaah has not explained the reason, and say as the believers say: 鈥淲e hear and we obey.鈥 em枚fine:
[Q]: Also I heard that having 6 daughters is a blessing in Islam. Is that true or false?
Lol, that is false;, em枚fine:
[Q]: Are muslims allowed to listen to music? Or are they only allowed to listen to particular kinds of music (sorry if the question sounds daft but that's what I've heard from another source )
Music with vain speech and instruments is prohibited in islam. Songs which do not include obscene or any non permissible matter and are sung under the limits of Shariah are allowed, otherwise not. The Quran states: But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge [or meaning], to mislead [men] from the Path of God and throw ridicule [on the
Path]: for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty. (Surah 31:6)We see that the theme of music particularly in recent times is about things that are vain and conceited. Muslims are to avoid these. There are muslims who are of the opinion that all music is permissible. I do not share that opinion. The prophet(SAW) said: `There will be people of my Ummah(nation) who will seek to make lawful; fornication, wine-drinking and the use of ma`aazif ( musical instruments ).` The use of the drum is allowed on the occasion of a wedding, wedding feast (walimah) and both days of Eid. This is concerning the drum which has no tinkle. The drum which has the tinkle is not permitted to be used. I hope this helps; Thanks. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by em枚fine2(f): 10:23am On Jan 09, 2012 |
tbaba1234:
Lol, that is false;,聽   Can religion be separated from culture?I was gonna post a whole epistle here but let me narrow it down lol So when one adopts Islam does such a person also partly assume the Arabic culture?
And does that mean Islam is biased to particular cultures i.e. does Islam favour and lean more to the Arabs? tbaba1234:
I hope this helps;
Thanks. Yes it has, thanks. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 10:51am On Jan 09, 2012 |
em枚fine:
Can religion be separated from culture?
I was gonna post a whole epistle here but let me narrow it down lol
So when one adopts Islam does such a person also partly assume the Arabic culture?
And does that mean Islam is biased to particular cultures i.e. does Islam favour and lean more to the Arabs?
There is a difference between religion and culture. A muslim can maintain all aspects of his culture (his clothing, language, name ) that does not contradict with islamic values. One does not have to change his name when he becomes muslim except the name does not have a good meaning. You do not have to wear arabic clothes, you just to ensure that you are dressed modestly within the limits of islam. You do not have to give up your language or food. Today, Arabs make up just about 20% of the entire muslim population so muslims are a mixed bag of different tribes, languages and cultures. The prophet (SAW) said in his final sermon: All mankind is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over an Arab; white has no superiority over black, nor does a black have any superiority over white; [none have superiority over another] except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.Does this answer the question? |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by em枚fine2(f): 8:04pm On Jan 09, 2012 |
tbaba1234:
Does this answer the question?
Yes, thanks . |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by em枚fine2(f): 12:31am On Jan 10, 2012 |
My next couple of questions are pretty political so I will understand if you'd rather not answer them.
[Q]: Are there any aspects of Christianity that Muslims agree with?
[Q]: How do you feel about current statistic which claim that Christianity is the number 1 religion on earth? |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234$: 1:40am On Jan 10, 2012 |
em枚fine:
My next couple of questions are pretty political so I will understand if you'd rather not answer them.
[Q]: Are there any aspects of Christianity that Muslims agree with?
Islam is similar to Christianity, both believe that: - There is only one God. He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. - God sent prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Joseph, John the Baptist, Jesus, Mohammad, etc. - People should follow the Ten Commandments and the moral teachings of the prophets. - Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin; therefore Jesus was born miraculously. - Jesus Christ is the Messiah and he performed miracles. - The Torah(of moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) are holy scriptures. - Satan is evil; therefore, people should not follow Satan. - An Anti-Christ will appear on Earth before the Day of Judgment. - Jesus Christ will return by descending from Heaven and will kill the Anti-Christ. - The Day of Judgment will occur and people will be judged. - There is hell and paradise. There are 3 main differences between Islam & Christianity: 1. Today, most Christians believe in the Trinity, meaning that God has 3 forms (Father, Son, Holy Ghost/ Spirit). The concept of trinity was not adopted by Christianity until the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. Some of the early Christians were Unitarians. Even today, there are Christian Unitarian churches that do not accept the Trinity. While in Islam, (a) Trinity is totally rejected. Jesus is neither God, nor Son of God (in the literal sense). Jesus was a human prophet and not divine. (a) Muslims worship only God, the one and only the creator of the universe. (b) This God (the Quran refers to as Allah) is the God and creator of Jesus and is the same God that Jesus in the current Bible refers to as Father and to whom Jesus used to pray. (c) Muslims consider Mohammad, Moses, and Jesus as prophets and messengers sent by God ("messengers" is term that refers to prophets who brought holy scriptures to their people as a message from God). These prophets were human beings, not divine, and should not be worship directly or indirectly. (d) Muslims believe that each human being can be called son/daughter of God because he/she was created by God. So there is nothing special or divine about Jesus being called son of God and therefore Jesus should not be worshiped. (e) Finally, angels (such as Gabriel) are servants/agents of God. Angels are created by God; therefore, they are not divine and should not be worshiped. 2. The Quran says Jesus did not die on the cross, but God made it appear that way to people. Furthermore, the Quran also says that Jesus was ascended to Heaven by God. Most Christians today insist Jesus was crucified and died on the cross, but two days later was resurrected. 3. Christians believe in the concept of "Original Sin" which means that human beings are born as sinners , bearing the burden of the "Original Sin" of Adam and Eve. Muslims do not believe in the " Original Sin" for 2 main reasons: (a) In the Quran, God forgave Adam for what he has done, and (b) according to the Quran, no one should be made to bear the burden of someone else's sin or mistake because it is unfair. em枚fine:
[Q]: How do you feel about current statistic which claim that Christianity is the number 1 religion on earth?
I don't have any feeling on that, one way or another. In 2008, the Vatican claimed that Islam has overtaken Catholicism as the largest faith. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343336,00.html There is no way to be sure of this kind of stats and it is not to be taken too seriously. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by em枚fine2(f): 10:01am On Jan 11, 2012 |
I believe there must be at the very least elements of truth embedded in all the holy scriptures. However that does not qualify the whole product as "truth" per se as all lies contain truth within them. [Q]: Did any of the holy books copy each other? . . . because I'm thinking the truth must predate a lie as a lie can only exist in the presence of truth because ultimately a lie is just a perversion of the truth. [Q]: So how could lies exists before the truth? [Q]: As a Muslim do you perceive other religions as b[i]o[/i]ob[i]y[/i] traps/ inhibitors of the truth? [Q]: Do you believe spirituality is subjective or objective? |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 3:53pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
em枚fine:
I believe there must be at the very least elements of truth embedded in all the holy scriptures. However that does not qualify the whole product as "truth" per se as all lies contain truth within them.
[Q]: Did any of the holy books copy each other? . . . because I'm thinking the truth must predate a lie as a lie can only exist in the presence of truth because ultimately a lie is just a perversion of the truth.
All holy books have the same source. As muslims, we believe that the torah was revealed to moses, gospel to Jesus and they are all from the same source and they have the same message. The Quran tells us that it has come as a confirmation of earlier scriptures, It also tells us that other scriptures have suffered corruption by men and promises that this book will be guarded from corruption. The Quran confirms the truth in the revelations before. 鈥淰erily, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr(reminder) (i.e. the Qur鈥檃an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)鈥 [Surah al-Hijr 15:9] The Quran states: And now that a Messenger has come unto them from Allah confirming the Truth in what they have, a party among those who were given the Scripture before, cast the Scripture of Allah (the Torah and the Gospel) behind their backs as if they know not. (Q 2:101)
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: This is from God,' to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to
them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Qur'an 2:79)The message of Jesus had ceased to exist as an authoritative message by the time the Quran is revealed. What we have now are pieces of it in the gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John, (No one actually knows the names of the authors of these gospels). According to the Jews, the torah is attributed to a 5-volume book constituting the scripture for people of the Jewish faith. It is a Jewish belief that the Torah is what was revealed to Moses during the course of his journey from Egypt to Jerusalem. Nonetheless, it is contended even by the most Ardent but pragmatic followers of the Jewish faith, that the Book revealed to Moses is lost. The Old Testament was revised and edited in approximately 500BC after Cyrus the Great liberated the Jews from Babylon. This rendition was a compilation of at least 12 different manuscripts written by various priests of the time, and was laced with myths absorbed from Mesopotamian regions. The foremost example of this is the name of God Himself. God is addressed by different names that seem to be used in a progressive fashion throughout the Torah. For instance, within Genesis alone, we observe the name of God as Elohim that is derived from the Babylonian El, and later this name changes to YHWH, and then YHWH Elohim, inspired by Ya or Iya of Edomite origin. A simple illustration can be found in Deutronomy 34, that talks about Moses death 5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. Did moses write about his death and burial? who wrote the the other verses? The gospel of Jesus came to confirm the truth of the Torah and the Quran came to confirm the truth in all previous revelations. The Quran has remained the same for more than 1400 years and God has promised to protect it from corruption. None of the revelations were copied. On whether the Quran was copied? That is impossible for the following reasons. 1. There was an absence of historical Syriac-Christian works prevalent in Mecca at that period. 2.The prophet was an illiterate who could neither read or write. 3. The Quran corrected historical inaccuracies in the old testament. (i can give examples if you want) . em枚fine:
[Q]: So how could lies exists before the truth?
There were no lies before the truth, The truth was distorted by men. A study of early Christianity for instance shows that there were different ideologies about Jesus by the early christians. Jesus's brother James and Jude saw him as a servant of God, that view was controversial to christian leaders at the time because the roman empire had adopted Paul's view of Jesus. Paul, a man who never met Jesus. Up till today, the epistle of james is omitted from Bible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkPI9GOBMYs em枚fine:
[Q]: As a Muslim do you perceive other religions as b[i]o[/i]ob[i]y[/i] traps/ inhibitors of the truth?
I have no perception of any other religion. The Quran states: 1. Say : O ye that reject Faith! 2. I worship not that which ye worship, 3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, 5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.Truth stands out from falsehood, Anyone who has done a honest study of Islam will know, it is the truth. em枚fine:
[Q]: Do you believe spirituality is subjective or objective?
In islam, everything you do has a spiritual angle. Everything you do is to gain the pleasure of God. Therefore, you stay away from corruption in the work place, you meet your brother with a smiling face, you pick up dangerous objects from the street seeking only God's pleasure. Even a smile is charity, putting a morsel of food in your wife's mouth is charity, The prophet(SAW) said "When a Husband And Wife Look at Each Other With LOVE,,,Allah Looks at Both With Mercy" [Bukhari 6:19 & Tirmidhi 14:79] In islam, You are always God conscious, at least you should be. Praying 5 times a day for me helps me maintain that God consciousness. So there is an objective and subjective angle to spirituality in islam. I hope this answers the questions, |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by frosbel(m): 4:41pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
tbaba1234:
All holy books have the same source. As muslims, we believe that the torah was revealed to moses, gospel to Jesus and they are all from the same source and they have the same message.
The Quran tells us that it has come as a confirmation of earlier scriptures, It also tells us that other scriptures have suffered corruption by men and promises that this book will be guarded from corruption. The Quran confirms the truth in the revelations before.
鈥淰erily, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr(reminder) (i.e. the Qur鈥檃an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)鈥 [Surah al-Hijr 15:9]
The Quran states:
And now that a Messenger has come unto them from Allah confirming the Truth in what they have, a party among those who were given the Scripture before, cast the Scripture of Allah (the Torah and the Gospel) behind their backs as if they know not. (Q 2:101)
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: This is from God,' to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to
them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Qur'an 2:79)
The message of Jesus had ceased to exist as an authoritative message by the time the Quran is revealed. What we have now are pieces of it in the gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John, (No one actually knows the names of the authors of these gospels).
According to the Jews, the torah is attributed to a 5-volume book constituting the scripture for people of the Jewish faith. It is a Jewish belief that the Torah is what was revealed to Moses during the course of his journey from Egypt to Jerusalem.
Nonetheless, it is contended even by the most Ardent but pragmatic followers of the Jewish faith, that the Book revealed to Moses is lost. The Old Testament was revised and edited in approximately 500BC after Cyrus the Great liberated the Jews from Babylon.
This rendition was a compilation of at least 12 different manuscripts written by various priests of the time, and was laced with myths absorbed from Mesopotamian regions. The foremost example of this is the name of God Himself. God is addressed by different names that seem to be used in a progressive fashion throughout the Torah. For instance, within Genesis alone, we observe the name of God as Elohim that is derived from the Babylonian El, and later this name changes to YHWH, and then YHWH Elohim, inspired by Ya or Iya of Edomite origin.
A simple illustration can be found in Deutronomy 34, that talks about Moses death
5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said.
6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.
Did moses write about his death and burial? who wrote the the other verses?
The gospel of Jesus came to confirm the truth of the Torah and the Quran came to confirm the truth in all previous revelations. The Quran has remained the same for more than 1400 years and God has promised to protect it from corruption. None of the revelations were copied.
On whether the Quran was copied? That is impossible for the following reasons.
1. There was an absence of historical Syriac-Christian works prevalent in Mecca at that period.
2.The prophet was an illiterate who could neither read or write.
3. The Quran corrected historical inaccuracies in the old testament. (i can give examples if you want) .
There were no lies before the truth, The truth was distorted by men.
A study of early Christianity for instance shows that there were different ideologies about Jesus by the early christians. Jesus's brother James and Jude saw him as a servant of God, that view was controversial to christian leaders at the time because the roman empire had adopted Paul's view of Jesus. Paul, a man who never met Jesus. Up till today, the epistle of james is omitted from Bible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkPI9GOBMYs
I have no perception of any other religion. The Quran states:
1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Truth stands out from falsehood, Anyone who has done a honest study of Islam will know, it is the truth.
In islam, everything you do has a spiritual angle. Everything you do is to gain the pleasure of God. Therefore, you stay away from corruption in the work place, you meet your brother with a smiling face, you pick up dangerous objects from the street seeking only God's pleasure. Even a smile is charity, putting a morsel of food in your wife's mouth is charity,
The prophet(SAW) said "When a Husband And Wife Look at Each Other With LOVE,,,Allah Looks at Both With Mercy" [Bukhari 6:19 & Tirmidhi 14:79]
In islam, You are always God conscious, at least you should be.
Praying 5 times a day for me helps me maintain that God consciousness. So there is an objective and subjective angle to spirituality in islam.
I hope this answers the questions,
What a load of twisted lies !!!! |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by Sweetnecta: 5:36pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
^^^^^^^^ that was your question, frosbel? can't you read and follow the instruction, especially this direct? mscheeeeeeeeew. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by brentkruge: 8:49pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
I have these questions;
(1) Fatimah was born 5 years after Hijra. Prophet Muhammad married Khadijah when he was 25 and she was 40. Prophet Muhammad claimed prophet hood when he was 40, therefore Khadijah would have been 60 when she gave birth to Fatimah. How possible is that?
(2) Every non-Muslim who died before Islam was revealed is in Hell ( Sahih Muslim 4:2130; Sahih Muslim 1:398) Why were they never given a chance?
(3) Modern Muslims have religious conflict with: Hindus in Kashmir; Christians in Nigeria, Egypt, and Bosnia; atheists in Chechnya; Baha'is in Iran; Animists in Darfur; Buddhists in Thailand; each other in Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen; Jews in Israel; Why is Islam involved in more sectarian and religious conflicts than any other religion today? In fact, why is Islam the only religion in conflict with every single one of today's major world religions? |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by chrisj2000(m): 9:16pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
who do we trust? |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by 2buff(m): 10:26pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
muslims are our neighbours. Let us all live by love. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by goggs(m): 10:55pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
tbaba1234:
All holy books have the same source. As muslims, we believe that the torah was revealed to moses, gospel to Jesus and they are all from the same source and they have the same message.
May I say that most of your assertions here are not correct. They are not supported by historical facts but by conjuncture. Please permit me to elaborate. First, I must say that beliefs may NOT necessarily be facts. So when you say Muslims BELIEVE that the gospels were revealed to Jesus, you may be right that it is what Muslims believe but it doesn't make true. The Qur'an says the New Testament is a book given to Jesus (Qur'an 5.46). However, in reality, it consists of books written by Jesus' followers. Its not organised in "the Gospel according to Jesus" but "The Gospel According to Mark" and so on. In fact you earlier聽 alluded to that in your post by saying,聽 What we have now are pieces of it in the gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John ,聽 So since you wrote one thing and believe another, I can say what you BELIEVE is at variance with what you KNOW and what IS. Needles to say that they do not contain the same message. Christianity has pacifism as its core principle, this is not the same as in the Koran or the Torah. For eg the Bible says forgive your enemies and pray for those who prosecute you; Love your neighbour as yourself; Blessed are the meek. These are themes found in the Bible. The message in the Koran is different. The Quran tells us that it has come as a confirmation of earlier scriptures, It also tells us that other scriptures have suffered corruption by men and promises that this book will be guarded from corruption. The Quran confirms the truth in the revelations before. If the scripture is corrupted, it presupposes that it was corrupted from an earlier one more authentic. We are not given a clue. Instead archaeological finds in the middle east about the bible continues to authenticate its reliability, from Syria to Damascus, Egypt to Jerusalem (just google archaeology and the bible). The most recent important find is the Old Testament (except the Book of Ester) of the Dead Sea Scrolls. These Books were dated to have been written 100 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D and hidden in the caves A.D. 66-70 (Please Google). They have confirmed what has been written in the Bible all these while. so, how could come they were corrupted? by whom? at least who said so?聽what of the original ones? The central theme of the Koran and the Bible are not the same so one cannot confirm the other. At least the Bible would say so.
The Quran states:
And now that a Messenger has come unto them from Allah confirming the Truth in what they have, a party among those who were given the Scripture before, cast the Scripture of Allah (the Torah and the Gospel) behind their backs as if they know not. (Q 2:101)
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: This is from God,'to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to
them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Qur'an 2:79)
The Bible didnt mention the Koran or the Prophet. So it is not the Bible was written about obviously. If the Bible was to predict what was coming (The Prophet of the Quran), it would say so and men like Waraqa (whom we shall talk about later) would have聽 given the Prophet the authentic Gospel. Since the then Christians didnt know Prophet Mohammed, they couldnt have hidden the true Gospel before his revelation. infact they would have waited for the promised one so eagerly. In matters of faith, do you corrupt passages to deny the divinity of one you do not even know? Even when YOUR ETERNITY is at stake?
The message of Jesus had ceased to exist as an authoritative message by the time the Quran is revealed. What we have now are pieces of it in the gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John, (No one actually knows the names of the authors of these gospels).
According to the Jews, the torah is attributed to a 5-volume book constituting the scripture for people of the Jewish faith. It is a Jewish belief that the Torah is what was revealed to Moses during the course of his journey from Egypt to Jerusalem.
How can the message of peace and love for all mankind cease to be authoritative? Where was it written so? To be replaced by? for want of time and space please go to http://www.basic-bible-knowledge.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament.html 聽for more on this. If you have read the Bible before, you will see the authorship of each book at the introduction. infact in several new testament books, the authors refer to themselves in the messages of hope, encouragement and love they wish to to convey, Nonetheless, it is contended even by the most Ardent but pragmatic followers of the Jewish faith, that the Book revealed to Moses is lost. The Old Testament was revised and edited in approximately 500BC after Cyrus the Great liberated the Jews from Babylon.
This rendition was a compilation of at least 12 different manuscripts written by various priests of the time, and was laced with myths absorbed from Mesopotamian regions. The foremost example of this is the name of God Himself. God is addressed by different names that seem to be used in a progressive fashion throughout the Torah. For instance, within Genesis alone, we observe the name of God as Elohim that is derived from the Babylonian El, and later this name changes to YHWH, and then YHWH Elohim, inspired by Ya or Iya of Edomite origin.
A simple illustration can be found in Deutronomy 34, that talks about Moses death
5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said.
6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.
Did moses write about his death and burial? who wrote the the other verses?
I would have loved to see the sources of your sweeping statements on the old testament cos it easy to make them. Your assertion the book of moses was lost, and revised and all that is just statements hence it would not serve any purpose to reply, really. For the education of us all and to make this worthy, back this up with references cos you were not there As regards Elohim and YHWH, please do google them to learn more. YHWH is the name of God transcribed into the Roman letters. Elohim is the word "God" in Hebrew. Unlike in Islam, since Biblical times God is referred to in indigenous languages because its all about a relationship we have. Christianity is all about PERSONAL relationship with God (as religion should be, PERSONAL), so you can call on him in your language to pray and worship whether you say Oluwa, or Ubanjigi (hope I got that right) or Chukwu. For example, Jesus referred to God as ''Abba, Father". Its a loving bond that defines the relationship, and communication with God not based on a language (such as Arabic) or a fixed method of prayer.
The gospel of Jesus came to confirm the truth of the Torah and the Quran came to confirm the truth in all previous revelations. The Quran has remained the same for more than 1400 years and God has promised to protect it from corruption. None of the revelations were copied.
On whether the Quran was copied? That is impossible for the following reasons.
1. There was an absence of historical Syriac-Christian works prevalent in Mecca at that period.
2.The prophet was an illiterate who could neither read or write.
3. The Quran corrected historical inaccuracies in the old testament. (i can give examples if you want) .
There were no lies before the truth, 聽The truth was distorted by men.
(1) Please find out about Ibn Qumta 聽in Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 ( A Christian who converted to Islam wrote Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad);
Khadija (Prophet Mohammed's Wife) had cousin brother Waraqa was first a Jew, then converted to Christianity. He became a devout Christian and reportedly translated the Gospel in his version of Arabic. His profound knowledge and understanding of the mainstream Christianity, as well as Judaism. Sahih Bukhari 4.55.605 (T[i]he Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."[/i] You can read further Sahih Bukhar 6.60.478, 1.1.3 on the same subject matter. Google it. So you see your assertion that there were "no historical Syriac-Christian works prevalent in Mecca at that period" is false. (2) The above passages from Sahih Bukhari makes this assertion baseless, really (3) Since there are no specifics, i will assume that this is a generalized statement. The only way to say authoritatively the gospels were corrupted will be to prove it. Its just not enough to say so. the statement must stand scrutiny. its like saying a person cheated but can't say how, why, when. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
A study of early Christianity for instance shows that there were different ideologies about Jesus by the early christians. Jesus's brother James and Jude 聽saw him as a servant of God, that view was controversial to christian leaders at the time because the roman empire had adopted Paul's view of Jesus. Paul, a man who never met Jesus. Up till today, the epistle of james is omitted from Bible.
How you arrived at this conclusion is not stated. So again, I have to treat it as a sweeping statement that serves no useful purpose. Just for noting, the Bible had no record of Jesus' brother(s). Unless you meant 'Christian Brothers" So how you reach that conclusion, I don't know. It would be nice to back up your claims so that the discussion could be beneficial to all
I have no perception of any other religion. The Quran states:
1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Truth stands out from falsehood, 聽Anyone who has done a honest study of Islam will know, it is the truth.
In islam, everything you do has a spiritual angle. Everything you do is to gain the pleasure of God. Therefore, you stay away from corruption in the work place, you meet your brother with a smiling face, you pick up dangerous objects from the street seeking only God's pleasure. Even a smile is charity, putting a morsel of food in your wife's mouth is charity,
The prophet(SAW) said "When a Husband And Wife Look at Each Other With LOVE,,,Allah Looks at Both With Mercy" [Bukhari 6:19 & Tirmidhi 14:79]
In islam, You are always God conscious, at least you should be.
Praying 5 times a day for me helps me maintain that God consciousness. So there is an objective and subjective angle to spirituality in islam.
I hope this answers the questions,
No doubt you are a devout Muslim. I would suggest you have just a rudimentary understanding of religions around you. It will help you appreciate were they are coming from and clear some false stereotypes about other religions. For me I have studied Islam beyond the rudimentary level and that has help me appreciate Muslims, their manners,dogma, reasons and preferences. My relationship with Muslims has improved tremendously for the better as a result even though I may not agree with Islam. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 11:13pm On Jan 11, 2012 |
brentkruge:
I have these questions;
(1) Fatimah was born 5 years after Hijra. Prophet Muhammad married Khadijah when he was 25 and she was 40. Prophet Muhammad claimed prophet hood when he was 40, therefore Khadijah would have been 60 when she gave birth to Fatimah. How possible is that?
Thanks for your questions: However, your premise is wrong Fatima was not born 5 years after hijra. Khadijah , her mother died before hijra (619CE). How can give birth if she is dead. Fatimah was born in 605CE, Hijra was in 622CE. brentkruge:
(2) Every non-Muslim who died before Islam was revealed is in Hell ( Sahih Muslim 4:2130; Sahih Muslim 1:398) Why were they never given a chance?
This is not the islamic position at all. As muslims, we believe that every messenger came with the same message. Worship the one God on his terms, so everyone who followed the original message of Moses, jesus or any other prophet will be in heaven. Islam means obtaining peace by submitting sincerely to the will of the creator. A muslim is one who submits. All messengers and prophet submitted to the will of the creator. Muslims do not see Islam as a new thing , It is the same message of submission to God preached by all messengers. It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 鈥溾 And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).鈥 [al-Israa鈥 17:15]. A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The references you provided Abu Huraira reported: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) visited the grave of his mother and he wept, and moved others around him to tears, and said: I sought permission from my Lord to beg forgiveness for her but it was not granted to me, and I sought permission to visit her grave and it was granted to me So visit the graves, for that makes you mindful of death. Sahih Muslim 4:2130; Anas reported: Verily, a person said: Messenger of Allah, where is my father? He said: (He) is in the Fire. When he turned away, he (the Holy Prophet) called him and said: Verily my father and your father are in the Fire. 聽 Sahih Muslim 1:398 Judgement is Allah only, I will not speculate on the reason for their punishment. Everyone is responsible for his/her actions in life. After death, all sins will be forgiven by God except one who took partners with God. Those who broke the first commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Muslims have it as : There is no deity worthy worthy of worship except Allah. God forgiveth not That partners should be set up With Him; but He forgivethAnything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up Partners with God Is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. Surah(4:48)brentkruge:
I have these questions;
(3) Modern Muslims have religious conflict with: Hindus in Kashmir; Christians in Nigeria, Egypt, and Bosnia; atheists in Chechnya; Baha'is in Iran; Animists in Darfur; Buddhists in Thailand; each other in Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen; Jews in Israel; Why is Islam involved in more sectarian and religious conflicts than any other religion today? In fact, why is Islam the only religion in conflict with every single one of today's major world religions?
A lot of the conflicts you are mentioned are political and tribal and nothing to do with islam. The indians and pakistans are fighting over a piece of land kashmir, The kashmir people want an independent state: That is a political conflict not a religious conflict. The only thing is that one side is majority muslim. The BH group killing christians in the north does not represent all muslims in Nigeria or even hausa people, Their values contradict sharply with islamic values Have you ever spoken to a coptic christian? Coptic and muslims have lived peacefully for centuries. Lets not go into israeli or the Iraqi conflict, the reasons for the conflicts is well known. The point is this, none of these conflicts are islamic conflicts, they are political conflicts, fights for land, power and resources. Thanks. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 12:24am On Jan 12, 2012 |
My study of Christianity is scholarly, and聽 from christian scholars. I respect your religion because we do share some values. If you do the same with islam, you might learn a few thing things, Normally i won't respond, but i will address two issues and you can do a more detailed research on your own.聽 Please just ask questions. 1. the authorship of the gospels 2. the waraqa point Ask a question if you want. goggs:
May I say that most of your assertions here are not correct. They are not supported by historical facts but by conjuncture. Please permit me to elaborate.
First, I must say that beliefs may NOT necessarily be facts. So when you say Muslims BELIEVE that the gospels were revealed to Jesus, while you are right that it is what Muslims believe but it is not true. The Qur'an claims the New Testament is a book given to Jesus (Qur'an 5.46). However, in reality, it consists of books by Jesus' followers. In fact you yourselve also said so in your post by saying,聽 What we have now are pieces of it in the gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John ,聽
You haven't read the Quran, have you? The Quran uses the word Injeel to describe the message of Jesus. Injeel is not an Arabic word based on Samitic roots, but is derived from the Greek Euanggelion. This word was also translated into Anglican to be called Godspell and later Gospel. The word Euanggelion means Good News. INJEEL is NOT NEW TESTAMENT, it means good news,聽 It means gospel. 5:46 And after them We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming the Divine Origin of what was revealed before him. We gave him the INJEEL in which there was guidance and a light, and it confirmed the Divine Origin of what was revealed before it in the Torah, a guidance and admonition to those who wished to live upright What does 5:46 have to do with anything  WHO IS MATHEW,MARK LUKE AND JOHN you know they were not the disciples of jesus:: Don't take it from me, Do your research.聽 Any bible scholar will tell you that. you can check out the references. They are not muslim references. i will make it simple, just go to wikipedia. for instance: Mathew Early Christian tradition held that the Gospel of Matthew was written in "Hebrew" (Aramaic, the language of Judea) by the apostle Matthew, the tax-collector and disciple of Jesus, but according to the majority of modern scholars it is UNLIKELY that this Gospel was written by an eyewitness.["Matthew, Gospel acc. to St." Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005] Modern scholars interpret the tradition to mean that Papias, its source, writing about 125-150 CE, believed that Matthew had made a collection of the sayings of Jesus.Papias's description does not correspond well with what is known of the gospel: it was most probably written in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew[b], it depends on the Greek Gospels of Mark and on the hypothetical Q document, and it is not a collection of sayings[/b]. Although the identity of the author is unknown, the internal evidence of the Gospel suggests that he was an ethnic Jewish male scribe from a Hellenised city, possibly Antioch in Syria, and that he wrote between 70 and 100 CE using a variety of oral traditions and written sources about Jesus. John John 21:24 identifies the author of the Gospel of John as "the beloved disciple," and from the late 2nd century this figure, unnamed in the Gospel itself, was identified with John the son of Zebedee.[86] Today, however, most scholars agree that John 21 is an appendix to the Gospel, which originally ended at John 20:30-31.[ Barnabas Lindars, "John" (Sheffield Academic Press, 1990) p.11] The majority of scholars date the Gospel of John to c. 80鈥95,[65][88] and propose that the author made use of two major sources, a "Signs" source (a collection of seven miracle stories) and a "Discourse" source.[89] LukeAccording to tradition the author was Luke the Evangelist, the companion of the Apostle Paul, but many modern scholars have expressed doubt and opinion on the subject is evenly divided.[ Raymond E. Brown, Introduction to the New Testament, New York: Anchor Bible (1997), pages 267鈥8. ] Instead, they believe Luke-Acts was written by an anonymous Christian author who may not have been an eyewitness to any of the events recorded within the text. Some of the evidence cited comes from the text of Luke-Acts itself. In the preface to Luke, the author refers to having eyewitness testimony "handed down to us" and to having undertaken a "careful investigation", but the author does not mention his own name or explicitly claim to be an eyewitness to any of the events, except for the we passages. And in the we passages, the narrative is written in the first person plural鈥 the author never refers to himself as "I" or "me". To those who are skeptical of an eyewitness author, the we passages are usually regarded as fragments of a second document, part of some earlier account, which was later incorporated into Acts by the later author of Luke-Acts, or simply a Greek rhetorical device used for sea voyages.[85] MarkAccording to tradition and early church fathers, the author is Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the apostle Peter.[72] T[b]he gospel, however, appears to rely on several underlying sources, varying in form and in theology, and which tells against the tradition that the gospel was based on Peter's preaching.[73] Various elements within the gospel, including the importance of the authority of Peter and the broadness of the basic theology, suggest that the author wrote in Syria or Palestine for a non-Jewish Christian community which had earlier absorbed the influence of pre-Pauline beliefs and then developed them further independent of Paul.[74] [/b] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#cite_note-86As you can see even the christian scholars do not even know who wrote these books,聽 No need to discuss further on this, do your own research. You can even send a mail to a scholar or something. goggs:
(1) Please find out about Ibn Qumta 聽in Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 (A Christian who converted to Islam wrote Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad);
Khadija (Prophet Mohammed's Wife) had cousin brother Waraqa was first a Jew, then converted to Christianity. He became a devout Christian and reportedly translated the Gospel in his version of Arabic. His profound knowledge and understanding of the mainstream Christianity, as well as Judaism. Sahih Bukhari 4.55.605 (T[i]he Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."[/i]
You can read further Sahih Bukhar 6.60.478, 1.1.3 on the same subject matter. Google it.
So you see your assertion that there were "no historical Syriac-Christian works prevalent in Mecca at that period" is false.
(2) The above passages from Sahih Bukhari makes this assertion baseless, really
(3) Since there are no specifics, i will assume that this is a generalized statement. The only way to say authoritatively the gospels were corrupted will be to prove it. Its just not enough to say so. the statement must stand scrutiny. its like saying a person cheated but can't say how, why, when. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
I hope i can help you here,聽 There was no written scripture of the bible in the Arabic language until way after the death of the prophet (come-on, google is your friend). Ibn Ish芒q narrated聽 in al-S卯rah al-Nabawiyyah, speaking about four people from Quraysh (Mecca) who were among the generation that preceded the Prophet Muhammad(P) and who had abandoned their people's faith (paganism) and went in search for their Haneefite roots. These four men were Waraqah bin Nawfal, cAbdull芒h bin Jahsh, cUthm芒n bin al-Huarith and Zaid bin Amro who said to each other "you know that your people had deviated from the religion of your father Abraham" and decided to search for their Haneefite roots and they "scattered into different countries seeking the Haneefite religion, the religion of Abraham". Ibn Ish芒q said that Waraqah bin Nawfal had converted to Christianity as a result of his search. [3] The migration of these four men out of Mecca shows that the city was completely a pagan society for if there was any significant Christian or Jewish presence in Mecca, it wouldn't be necessary for these men to travel in search for it. 1. Waraqa is one of the four men who left the pagan faith of Mecca as mentioned in this article in search for the Hanifite roots ( the religion of Abraham(P)) and returned as a Christian. Some missionaries depended on had卯ths narrated in Sahih al-Bukh芒r卯 to claim he taught the prophet: Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: ", The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly." The other had卯th is: Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3 Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.Waraqa was an old man and died shortly after Muhammad(P) had received the revelation of the Qur'芒n; as clearly can be read from the above had卯th. While the revelation of the Qur'芒n continued for more than twenty years after the death of Waraqah bin Nawfal, the Prophet(P) was receiving the revelation in different places and even while he was among his Companions. Also, he was answering direct questions raised later by the Jews in Madinah. In addition, the Jews and the disbelievers of Mecca would be very pleased if they knew for sure that there was a knowledgeable person who was teaching Muhammad(P) the Qur'芒n.
And finally Waraqa himself announced in all of the had卯ths reported in Sahih al-Bukh芒r卯 that he would support Muhammad(P) strongly if he lived long enough: "Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly." "if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." Now with the absence of Jewish and Christian sources in Mecca, the question remains: who was teaching Muhammad(P) the stories of the old Prophets and Nations which were all revealed in Mecca. Think about it, any other theory you devise is irrelevant. And yes about james, check Matthew 13:55 (in reference to Jesus) 鈥淚sn鈥檛 this the carpenter鈥檚 son? Isn鈥檛 his mother鈥檚 name Mary, and aren鈥檛 his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Mark 6:3 Isn鈥檛 this the carpenter? Isn鈥檛 this Mary鈥檚 son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren鈥檛 his sisters here with us?鈥 And they took offense at him. check out this archeological find [flash=500,400] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJzhkZfpfvo&noredirect=1[/flash] Learn islam with an open heart,聽 then you will learn, |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by goggs(m): 3:30am On Jan 12, 2012 |
was about to go to bed when i came across your reply. well to still catch my beauty sleep, I will be brief: (i) You don't expect people to ask questions and not challenge your answer. We are all learning, right? You might also learn a few things. (ii) Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel [/b]in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. The Hadith says Waraqa wrote FROM the Gospel to Arabic, it proved that there were the scriptures in Arabic at the time (what are the scriptures? Do they not consists of the Gospel of Christ?) Also, as a matter of conjecture, Waraqa was literate, who travelled out and converted to Christianity would have had the gospels with him. The Hadith records he was translating them. What makes it impossible for him NOT to have shared his beliefs with Khadijah? He most likely had cos she identified him as a person WHO could comment on the visions her husband was having. Also, consider the verse: Jonah (Yunus) 10:94, Late Meccan. "[b]If you (Muhammad) are in doubt regarding that which We have revealed to thee, ASK those who READ the book from before you, " In this verse, Prophet Mohammed was asked to be read to from the Gospel. Since he was an Illiterate, the gospel would have been read in Arabic. So, it is clear that there were the gospels and Torah in Pre-Islamic Mecca and Prophet Mohammed must have heard these from; (a) being a merchant in his early years, (b) from his secretaries as Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 reveals (A Christian who converted to Islam wrote Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad), and (c) the Jews of Medina/Arabia since they were there two centuries before the establishment of Islam. (iii) As per the brothers of Jesus, yes indeed, in Mark 3:31 and聽 Matthew 13:55 - Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?. It had completely skipped me. As for the video link and my subsequent searches, its still not a definitive find though still intriguing non the less. (iv) On the authorship of the New testament, the position of the Christians is clear, these were written by men inspired by God. Some give account of the life of Christ, others (the Epistles) are letters from early apostles to churches. the authorship of these books and letters and to whom, were known and kept by the Church for centuries. The Christianity has ALWAYS welcomed inquiries (positive or negative) into all aspects of its faith and this is ongoing as proofs strengthens faith. The Holy lands are kept open and busy for archaeologist seeking for clues. Many of which confirm the position of the Bible (eg the dead sea scrolls, Herod's artificial). It is obvious that researchers will reserve concurrence until they have definitive proofs. As proved by recent archaeological finds, these proofs are coming in one at a time. http://biblicalstudies.info/top10/schoville.htmTherefore to say "No one actually knows the names of the authors of these gospels" is incorrect. As your wikipedia sources say "according to early church fathers" or "early Christian tradition". The names are known but researchers want definitive proofs and as with the confirmation of the Old Testament they will get it. As you can see that Wikipedia editors were not exactly flattering on the origin of the Quran and its authenticity and authorship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_koranAlso, don't forget that places like Damascus, Syria; Antioch; Alexandria, Egypt; Anatolia, Turkey; Persia, Iran and Yemen were strong Christian centers until the brutal Muslim conquests of 630 - 750 causing the whole sale destruction of libraries and important learning Centres. It was obvious that a substantial treasure trove of history were destroyed聽 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 6:27am On Jan 12, 2012 |
goggs:
was about to go to bed when i came across your reply.
well to still catch my beauty sleep, I will be brief:
(i) You don't expect people to ask questions and not challenge your answer. We are all learning, right? You might also learn a few things.
(ii)聽
The Hadith says Waraqa wrote FROM the Gospel to Arabic, it proved that there were the scriptures in Arabic at the time (what are the scriptures? Do they not consists of the Gospel of Christ?) Also, as a matter of conjecture, Waraqa was literate, who travelled out and converted to Christianity would have had the gospels with him. The Hadith records he was translating them.
What makes it impossible for him NOT to have shared his beliefs with Khadijah? He most likely had cos she identified him as a person WHO could comment on the visions her husband was having.
I am impressed with the civil way you engage. kudos tbaba1234:
Khadija then accompanied him to[b] her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters[/b]. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write The hadith only says he wrote the scripture in hebrew,聽 It never said he wrote from the gospel to arabic. So waraqa wrote in hebrew, that is all we have here,聽 The hadiths never said he was translating anything. Khadijah saw her husband was distressed and took him to her old christian cousin for advice. It is a documented fact that christian scriptures did not exist in arabic until the death of the prophet. (See H. Lammens, 鈥淟e Chr茅tiens 脿 la Mecque 脿 la veille de l鈥橦茅gire鈥 in Bulletin de l鈥檌nstitut fran莽ais d鈥檃rch茅ologie orientale, pp.191-230; F. Nau Les Arabes chr茅tiens de M茅sopotamie and J. Henninger, Spuren christlicher Glaubenswahrheiten im Koran.) See this is a given,聽 Waraqah died and for 20 years, the Quran kept coming. The biblical scriptures did not exist in the arabic language. The prophet was unlettered. The hadith about the man聽 who was a muslim goes like this: Narrated Anas: There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him." Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them." They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them." They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground). He used to write because the prophet couldn't write. This was a man that the earth refused to accept his body?? ,聽 Please stop bringing up weak arguments. The revelations kept coming,聽 These revelations came in the company of his companions, his wives, his visitors, his enemies,,聽 In this period, he fought wars, made peace, ruled an empire, served as a religious leader,a Judge. Where is the time for someone teaching him such an eloquent piece.聽 The only thing you have here are conspiracy theories. Let me prove to you then that this is a revelation from God. The Quran could not have been revealed by a man, any man,聽 check this http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-808478.0.htmlThe Quran states: Surah 2 23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Chapter like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers [If there are any] besides Allah, if your [doubts] are true. This is a challenge made to the Arabs to come up with a chapter that compares to the Quran in its style: The shortest chapter is 3 sentences. Now lets use rational deduction: Rational deduction is the thinking process where logical conclusions are drawn from a universally accepted statement or provable premises. This process is also called rational inference or logical deduction. In the context of the Qur鈥檃n鈥檚 uniqueness the universally accepted statement supported by eastern and western scholarship is: 鈥淭he Qur鈥檃n was not successfully imitated by the Arabs at the time of revelation鈥 From this statement the following logical conclusions can be drawn: 1. The Qur鈥檃n could not have come from an Arab as the Arabs, at the time of revelation, were linguists par excellence and they failed to challenge the Qur鈥檃n. They had even admitted that the Qur鈥檃n could have not come from a human being. 2. The Qur鈥檃n could not have come from a Non-Arab as the language in the Qur鈥檃n is Arabic, and the knowledge of the Arabic language is a pre-requisite to successfully challenge the Qur鈥檃n. 3. The Qur鈥檃n could not have come from the Prophet Muhammad due to the following reasons: a. The Prophet Muhammad was an Arab himself and all the Arabs failed to challenge the Qur鈥檃n. b. The Arabs linguists at the time of revelation never accused the Prophet of being the author of the Qur鈥檃n. c. The Prophet Muhammad experienced many trials and tribulations during the course of his Prophetic mission. For example his children died, his beloved wife Khadija passed away, he was boycotted, his close companions were tortured and killed, yet the Qur鈥檃n鈥檚 literary character remains that of the divine voice and character. Nothing in the Qur鈥檃n expresses the turmoil and emotions of the Prophet Muhammad. It is almost a psychological and physiological impossibility to go through what the Prophet went through and yet none of the emotions are expressed in the literary character of the Qur鈥檃n. d. The Qur鈥檃n is a known literary masterpiece yet its verse were at many times revealed for specific circumstances and events that occurred. However, without revision or deletion they are literary masterpieces. All literary masterpieces have undergone revision and deletion to ensure literary perfection, however the Qur鈥檃n was revealed instantaneously. e. The hadith or narrations of the Prophet Muhammad are in a totally different style then that of the Qur鈥檃n. How can any human being express themselves orally over a 23 year period (which was the period of Qur鈥檃nic revelation) in two distinct styles? This is a psychological and physiological impossibility according to modern research. f. All types of human expression can be imitated if the blueprint of that expression exists. For example artwork can be imitated even though some art is thought to be extraordinary or amazingly unique. But in the case of the Qur鈥檃n we have the blueprint 鈥 the Qur鈥檃n itself 鈥 yet no one has been able to imitate its unique literary form. 4. The Qur鈥檃n could not have come from another being such as a Jinn or Spirit because the basis of their existence is the Qur鈥檃n and revelation itself. Their existence is based upon revelation and not empirical evidence. Therefore if someone claims that the source of the Qur鈥檃n to be another being then they would have to prove its existence and in this case proving revelation. In the case of using the Qur鈥檃n as the revelation to establish Jinns existence then that would mean the whole rational deduction exercise would not be required in the first place, as the Qur鈥檃n would already have been established as a divine text, because to believe in Jinns existence would mean belief in the Qur鈥檃n in the first place. 5. The Qur鈥檃n can only have come from the Divine as it is the only logical explanation as all other explanations have been discarded because they do not explain the uniqueness of the Qur鈥檃n in a comprehensive and coherent manner. 鈥淥r do they say: 鈥淗e (Prophet Muhammad, ) has forged it (this Qur鈥檃n)?鈥 Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recitation like it (the Qur鈥檃n) if they are truthful.鈥 Surah at-Toor (The Mount) 52: 33-34. The Miracle What makes the Qur鈥檃n a miracle, is that it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic language. The productive capacity of nature, concerning the Arabic language, is that any grammatically sound expression of the Arabic language will always fall within the known Arabic literary forms of Prose and Poetry. [b]The Qur鈥檃n is a miracle as its literary form cannot be explained via the productive capacity of the Arabic language, because all the possible combinations of Arabic words, letters and grammatical rules have been exhausted and yet the Qur鈥檃n鈥檚 literary form has not been imitated. [/b]The Arabs who were known to have been Arab linguists par excellence failed to successfully challenge the Qur鈥檃n. Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot who was a notable British Orientalist and translator states: 鈥溾nd that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.鈥 The implication of this is that there is no link between the Qur鈥檃n and the Arabic language; however this seems impossible because the Qur鈥檃n is made up of the Arabic language! On the other hand, all the combinations of Arabic words and letters have been used to try and imitate the Qur鈥檃n. Therefore, it can only be concluded that a supernatural explanation is the only coherent explanation for this impossible Arabic literary form 鈥 the Qur鈥檃n. When we look at the productive nature of the Arabic language to find an answer for the unique literary form of the Qur鈥檃n, we find no link between it and the divine text, thus making it an impossibility requiring supernatural explanation. So it logically follows that if the Qur鈥檃n is a literary event that lies outside the productive capacity of the Arabic language, then, by definition, it is a miracle. William Shakespeare for instance, who was an English poet and playwright, widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language, is often used as an example of unique literature. The argument posed is that if Shakespeare expressed his poetry and prose in a unique manner 鈥 and he is a human being 鈥 then surely no matter how unique the Qur鈥檃n is, it must also be from a human being. However there are some problems with the above argument. It does not take into account the nature of the Qur鈥檃n鈥檚 uniqueness and it doesn鈥檛 understand the uniqueness of literary geniuses such as Shakespeare. Although Shakespeare composed poetry and prose that received an unparalleled aesthetic reception, the literary form he expressed his works in was not unique. In many instances Shakespeare used the common Iambic Pentameter (The Iambic pentameter is a meter in poetry. It refers to a line consisting of five iambic feet. The word 鈥減entameter鈥 simply means that there are five feet in the line.) However in the case of the Qur鈥檃n, its language is in an entirely unknown and unmatched literary form. The structural features of the Qur鈥檃nic discourse render it unique and not the subjective appreciation of its literary and linguistic makeup. There are many imitations of the style of Shakespeare. In over 1400 years, there has not been one successful attempt to imitate the style of the Quran. And remember, It is in a language with finite letters. If that is not a Miracle, I dont know what is. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 7:15am On Jan 12, 2012 |
As regards the Quran completeness and preseravtion, Scholarly work done by both western and eastern scholars attest to this:
Introduction to the Qur'an, W. Montgomery Watt (Author), Richard Bell Page 3: They assert the job done by the companions preserved the Quran and that the Quran is exactly as it was revealed to the prophet.
These are both christians:
A.T. Welch, a non-Muslim orientalist, writes:
鈥淔or Muslims the Quran is much more than scripture or sacred literature in the usual Western sense. Its primary significance for the vast majority through the centuries has been in its oral form, the form in which it first appeared, as the 鈥渞ecitation鈥 chanted by Muhammad to his followers over a period of about twenty years鈥 The revelations were memorized by some of Muhammad鈥檚 followers during his lifetime, and the oral tradition that was thus established has had a continuous history ever since, in some ways independent of, and superior to, the written Quran鈥 Through the centuries the oral tradition of the entire Quran has been maintained by the professional reciters (qurraa). Until recently, the significance of the recited Quran has seldom been fully appreciated in the West.鈥 (The Encyclopedia of Islam, 鈥楾he Quran in Muslim Life and Thought.鈥)
Leading orientalist Kenneth Cragg reflects that:
鈥溾his phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifdh (Quranic memorization) has made the Quran a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation, never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone.鈥(Kenneth Cragg, The Mind of the Quran, London: George Allen & Unwin, 1973, p.26.)
John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Quran鈥檚 compilation, states that the Quran as we have it today is:
鈥溾he text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet鈥. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad. (John Burton, The Collection of the Quran, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1977, p.239-40.)
The evidence above confirms God鈥檚 promise in the Quran:
鈥淰erily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.鈥 (Quran 15:9) |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by em枚fine2(f): 12:36pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
goggs:
No doubt you are a devout Muslim. I would suggest you have just a rudimentary understanding of religions around you. It will help you appreciate were they are coming from and clear some false stereotypes about other religions.
For me I have studied Islam beyond the rudimentary level and that has help me appreciate Muslims, their manners,dogma, reasons and preferences. My relationship with Muslims has improved tremendously for the better as a result even though I may not agree with Islam. Interesting. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by goggs(m): 1:04pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
Thanks for your reply. I will like to say that it is 聽not my intention to derail your thread, which is essentially about about giving answers to questions on Islam. So, I will give a quick short reply so that the discussions can continue (without going back and forth). (i) The hadith only says he wrote the scripture in hebrew, 聽It never said he wrote from the gospel to arabic. So waraqa wrote in hebrew, that is all we have here, 聽The hadiths never said he was translating anything. Sahih Bukhari, Book 55, Number 605: "Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly." It said he read from the Gospels in Arabic. That meant that the Gospels were in pre Islamic Mecca. When someone reads the Gospels in Arabic, what does that mean? There has to have been a translation either by Waraqa himself or someone. In fact its likely the Gospels were translated by someone before Waraqa. Because he "used to read the Gospel in Arabic" likely means its from a document, already translated, read to Meccans (else how would they know he had them) and so the Meccans were aware of the Gospel and very likely had it. And Waraqa, being a convert would have shared his faith with Khadijah (how else would she know to consult him). Its really clear. I have taken the liberty to provide the Islamic version of the hadith so you can read yourself; Sahih Bukhari, Book 55, Number 605: 賮乇噩毓 亘賴丕 乇爻賵賱 丕賱賱賴 氐賱賶 丕賱賱賴 毓賱賷賴 賵爻賱賲 賷乇噩賮 賮丐丕丿賴貙 賮丿禺賱 毓賱賶 禺丿賷噩丞 亘賳鬲 禺賵賷賱丿 乇囟賷 丕賱賱賴 毓賳賴丕 賮賯丕賱: (夭賲賱賵賳賷 夭賲賱賵賳賷) 賮丕賳胤賱賯鬲 亘賴 禺丿賷噩丞 丨鬲賶 兀鬲鬲 亘賴 賵乇賯丞 亘賳 賳賵賮賱 亘賳 兀爻丿 亘賳 毓亘丿 丕賱毓夭賶貙 丕亘賳 毓賲 禺丿賷噩丞貙 賵賰丕賳 丕賲乇亍丕 鬲賳氐乇 賮賷 丕賱噩丕賴賱賷丞貙 賵賰丕賳 賷賰鬲亘 丕賱賰鬲丕亘 丕賱毓亘乇丕賳賷貙 賮賷賰鬲亘 賲賳 丕賱廿賳噩賷賱 亘丕賱毓亘乇丕賳賷丞 賲丕 卮丕亍 丕賱賱賴 兀賳 賷賰鬲亘貙 賵賰丕賳 卮賷禺丕 賰亘賷乇丕 賯丿 毓賲賷貙 賮賯丕賱鬲 賱賴 禺丿賷噩丞: 賷丕 亘賳 毓賲貙 丕爻賲毓 賲賳 丕亘賳 兀禺賷賰 賮賯丕賱 賱賴 賵乇賯丞: 賷丕 亘賳 兀禺賷 賲丕匕丕 鬲乇賶責 賮兀禺亘乇賴 乇爻賵賱 丕賱賱賴 氐賱賶 丕賱賱賴 毓賱賷賴 賵爻賱賲 禺亘乇 賲丕 乇兀賶貙 賮賯丕賱賴 賱賴 賵乇賯丞: 賴匕丕 丕賱賳丕賲賵爻 丕賱匕賷 賳夭賱 丕賱賱賴 亘賴 毓賱賶 賲賵爻賶貙 賷丕 賱賷鬲賳賷 賮賷賴丕 噩匕毓貙 賱賷鬲賳賷 兀賰賵賳 丨賷丕 廿匕 賷禺乇噩賰 賯賵賲賰貙 賮賯丕賱 乇爻賵賱 丕賱賱賴 氐賱賶 丕賱賱賴 毓賱賷賴 賵爻賱賲 (ii) There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him." Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them." They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them." They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground). This was a man who made a damaging claim against the authorship of the Quran. It was acknowledged he used to write the revelation and made claims about what the Prophet said. Of course, I expect some divine punishment to be meted out to him by writers of the Hadith to limit the damages this man may have 聽done to the authorship of the Holy Scriptures. The Hadith did not say explicitly why he was so "punished". Also, for a writer of revelations, i expected him to have been a convert due to the divine nature of what he was writing. But he didn't. He recanted. Why? Being in the front line of the revelation of all time yet he recanted? Did he find something objectionable? likely. If he made some insertions of his own (saying the Prophets knew nothing of what he wrote) What were they? Where properly expunged? Or was he deriding the Prophet for being unlettered i.e. pride? We may never know. (iii) As regards the Quran completeness and preseravtion, Scholarly work done by both western and eastern scholars attest to this: I have stated else where in this forum that quoting scholars' opinions to support religious positions are not the best way to advance such debates because if you so choose you will find the most rabid and irrational positions on both sides. There are thousands of studies which call to question the authenticity and veracity of the Quran from its authorship, accuracies, 聽assumptions, language, structure, arrangement, authority, interpretations, style etc. Also, some scholars have very very unflattering view of the Quran. Quoting them will serve no purpose other than elongating the debate. I would rather stick to the main religious texts and sparingly use such texts to reinforce my position. Best wishes. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by frosbel(m): 1:20pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
goggs:
There are thousands of studies which call to question the authenticity and veracity of the Quran from its authorship, accuracies, 聽assumptions, language, structure, arrangement, authority, interpretations, style etc. Also, some scholars have very very unflattering view of the Quran. Quoting them will serve no purpose other than elongating the debate. I would rather stick to the main religious texts and sparingly use such texts to reinforce my position.
Best wishes.
Precisely !!! |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 4:11pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
goggs:
Thanks for your reply.
I will like to say that it is 聽not my intention to derail your thread, which is essentially about about giving answers to questions on Islam. So, I will give a quick short reply so that the discussions can continue (without going back and forth).
(i)
Sahih Bukhari, Book 55, Number 605:
"Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."
So What do we know about waraqa now? He wrote in hebrew and was an arab. It is important to note the pre islamic arab had a predominantly oral culture. So waraqa recited/read (iqra (arabic word)) the gospel in arabic to arabs because there was no written down text in the arabic language. Look at this simple illustration: I am yoruba, I understand the hebrew scripture, There is no yoruba scripture and we have an oral culture, If i recite to people about what is in my scripture, I will do so in the language they understand. That is what waraqa did, There is no single study done by any renowned scholar that shows that the bible existing in the Arabic language anytime close to the time of the prophet. The earliest place the arabic bible around 900CE or so. It is not a contentious issue at all. goggs:
(ii)
This was a man who made a damaging claim against the authorship of the Quran. It was acknowledged he used to write the revelation and made claims about what the Prophet said. Of course, I expect some divine punishment to be meted out to him by writers of the Hadith to limit the damages this man may have 聽done to the authorship of the Holy Scriptures. The Hadith did not say explicitly why he was so "punished". Also, for a writer of revelations, i expected him to have been a convert due to the divine nature of what he was writing. But he didn't. He recanted. Why? Being in the front line of the revelation of all time yet he recanted? Did he find something objectionable? likely. If he made some insertions of his own (saying the Prophets knew nothing of what he wrote) What were they? Where properly expunged? Or was he deriding the Prophet for being unlettered i.e. pride? We may never know.
The first thing to understand here is that the Quran was revealed in an oral form at different points and at different times and was memorized by the companions and family of the prophet. The scribes are usually the last to know about a revelation. So to say he was at the 'frontline' of revelation is inaccurate. There were other scribes who maintained their faith and did their job. He was punished because he lied against God's revelation. I can't speculate on his reason for conversion, people make decision for reasons that are sometime selfish. Now that the small talk has been dealt with lets talk more about the nature of revelation of the Quran, The Quranic verses were revealed at different occasion and at different times. sometimes the verse before was revealed in a totally different situation, a situation different from the verse after. When we consider carefully the timing of the revelation of the Qur'anic passages and chapters, in the context their arrangement, A sincere learner is profoundly astonished. We almost belie what we see and hear. We then begin to ask ourselves for an explanation of this highly improbable phenomenon: is it not true that this new passage of revelation has just been heard as new, addressing a particular event which is its only concern? Yet it sounds as though it is neither new nor separate from the rest. It seems as if it has been, along with the rest of the Qur'an, perfectly impressed on this man's mind long before he has recited it to us. It has been fully engraved on his heart before its composition in the words he recites. How else can it unite so perfectly and harmoniously parts and pieces that do not naturally come together?鈥 Is it as a result of an experiment that follows a spontaneous thought? That could not be the case. When each part was put in its position, the one who placed them never had a new thought or introduced any modification or re-arrangement. How then could he have determined his plan? And how could he have made his intention so clear in advance?, When we consider such detailed instructions on the arrangement of passages and chapters we are bound to conclude that there is a complete and detailed plan assigning the position of each passage before they are all revealed. Indeed the arrangement is made before the reasons leading to the revelation of any passage occur, and even before the start of the preliminary causes of such events鈥 Such are the plain facts about the arrangement of the Qur'an as it was revealed in separate verses, passages and chapters over a period of 23 years. What does that tell us about its source? I leave you to think about that. goggs:
(iii)
I have stated else where in this forum that quoting scholars' opinions to support religious positions are not the best way to advance such debates because if you so choose you will find the most rabid and irrational positions on both sides.
There are thousands of studies which call to question the authenticity and veracity of the Quran from its authorship, accuracies, 聽assumptions, language, structure, arrangement, authority, interpretations, style etc. Also, some scholars have very very unflattering view of the Quran. Quoting them will serve no purpose other than elongating the debate. I would rather stick to the main religious texts and sparingly use such texts to reinforce my position.
Lets talk about the things that are not contentious then: The Quran comes up with a simple challenge: Bring a chapter like it, There is no arabic linguist that will tell you that there is anything like the Quran in the Arabic Language. There is no argument even from those that do not accept islam about the eloquence of the text. There is no argument about this. We have the blueprint, go ahead and produce a chapter like it, This is an objective challenge. Surah 2 23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers [If there are any] besides Allah, if your [doubts] are true. 24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. Thank you. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by goggs(m): 5:57pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
Sir, I wanted to keep away but had to come back because of what you wrote: It is important to note the Pre-Islamic arab had a predominantly oral culture. So waraqa recited/read (iqra (arabic word)) the gospel in arabic to arabs because there was no written down text in the arabic language. (i) Pre islamic arab had a predominantly oral culture, but part of it is written. How could Waraqa had "read" the gospel if it wasnt written? We would have been told he recited. While I agree that word Iqra (S奴rat al-Iqr膩)(廿賯乇丕, "Read"  may mean read or recite, It leads us to another聽 in Sura 19:2 (where the Prophet was commanded to read, and he said he聽 was unlettered). It couldnt have been "recite" cos even an unlettered man could. (ii) Sura 96:3 Read! And thy Lord is Most honourable,- Sura 96:4 He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- This Sura meant the written words were no strangers in pre-Islamic Arabia (iii) Arabic literature did not begin with the Qu'ran. In the ka'aba , there were a number of poems "hanged" on the walls http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/640hangedpoems.asp this shows that there were written words in Pre-Islamic arabia (iiii) While written language was not well developed in preIslamic Arabia ( before 610 AD), the influx of Jews (and their torah and better developed written language since 600 BCE) and the Christians (with their gospels) were recorded and documented especially in Medina. They provided the basis for the writting down of the Quran as shown in (v) (v) Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 (A Christian who converted to Islam wrote Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad) The Hadith and the Koran (as I have shown) all alluded to the existence of write form of language in Arabia at the time of the Prophet. And the existence of the Jews must have brought with them the torahs as these were developed writings from 600BCE Modern biblical scholars have concluded that the written books (Torah) were a product of the Babylonian exilic period (c.600 BCE) and that it was completed by the Persian period (c.400 BCE). ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah )
The first thing to understand here is that the Quran was revealed in an oral form at聽 different points and at different times and was memorized by the companions and family of the prophet. The scribes are usually the last to know about a revelation. So to say he was at the 'frontline' of revelation is inaccurate.
This is a general position, (I thought so too) but Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 shows otherwise. There was obviously some writing done; Bukhari 4.56.814聽 (A Christian who converted to Islam[b] wrote [/b]Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad). The Quran comes up with a simple challenge: Bring a chapter like it,
There is no arabic linguist that will tell you that there is anything like the Quran in the Arabic Language. There is no argument even from those that do not accept islam about the eloquence of the text.
There is no argument about this.
We have the blueprint, go ahead and produce a chapter like it,聽 This is an objective challenge. This challenge is not objective. There are a lot of people who will disagree with you. Your position the Quran is from a definitely not going to be an objective one聽 because you are a devout Muslim. I say so because as with matters of faith, its very subjective. A lot of scholars have some negative things to say when looking at it (Quran) on its merit, as is i.e. linguistic style, arrangement, language. Also, another set will rate it highly. All based on prior relationship with the book. There could be a few that owe no one allegiance (e.g. atheists) but would Muslims agree to this group offering a critique? I doubt. So lets just keep our opinions to ourselves. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 9:31pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
goggs:
Sir, I wanted to keep away but had to come back because of what you wrote:
(i) Pre islamic arab had a predominantly oral culture, but part of it is written. How could Waraqa had "read" the gospel if it wasnt written? We would have been told he recited. While I agree that word Iqra (S奴rat al-Iqr膩)(廿賯乇丕, "Read" may mean read or recite, It leads us to another聽 in Sura 19:2 (where the Prophet was commanded to read, and he said he聽 was unlettered). It couldnt have been "recite" cos even an unlettered man could.
(ii) Sura 96:3 Read! And thy Lord is Most honourable,- Sura 96:4 He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
This Sura meant the written words were no strangers in pre-Islamic Arabia
(iii) Arabic literature did not begin with the Qu'ran. In the ka'aba , there were a number of poems "hanged" on the walls http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/640hangedpoems.asp this shows that there were written words in Pre-Islamic arabia
(iiii) While written language was not well developed in preIslamic Arabia ( before 610 AD), the influx of Jews (and their torah and better developed written language since 600 BCE) and the Christians (with their gospels) were recorded and documented especially in Medina. They provided the basis for the writting down of the Quran as shown in (v)
i.) The first word Angel Gabriel spoke to Muhammad, peace be upon him, was "Iqra", which comes from the same root for Quran, and it was a command to "Recite!" (Many people, even Muslims today think this word meant 'read', but it is incorrect because the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not able to read or write). Immediately we see the importance of going back to the most authentic and original source - the Quran in Arabic - to better understand the meanings. The Quran means the recitation Iqra means to recite not to read, Modern translations use read but it means to recite in classical arabic (you can check lanes lexicon) The prophet replies; " I am not one who recites", Poetry recitation was a common theme in pre-historic arabia, and the prophet was not one who recited poems. The angel did not ask the prophet to read a non-existent book(the quran is not a written book, it is recited word), He was asked to recite words that were to be revealed to him. So waraqa recited what he knew of the scriptures. to arabs ii.) Iqra means recite not read, check classical dictionaries or ask an arab speaker if you know one. iii) True, no arguments there iv) The jews in medina had their books in hebrew, and it was only with the learned men mainly, V) This is a none issue The issue is that these books were NOT IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE, If you have a renowned scholar that says otherwise, please show me his works. goggs:
This challenge is not objective.
There are a lot of people who will disagree with you. Your position the Quran is from a definitely not going to be an objective one聽 because you are a devout Muslim. I say so because as with matters of faith, its very subjective. A lot of scholars have some negative things to say when looking at it (Quran) on its merit, as is i.e. linguistic style, arrangement, language. Also, another set will rate it highly. All based on prior relationship with the book. There could be a few that owe no one allegiance (e.g. atheists) but would Muslims agree to this group offering a critique? I doubt.
So lets just keep our opinions to ourselves.
Wrong it is objective. It is not about the aesthetic value either Like i said, Arabic linguist who study the literature of the quran attest to its uniqueness, Muslim or non muslim and this is not an opinion. I am saying academic studies not opinions. The Arabic language can be categorised into 鈥楶rose鈥 and 鈥楶oetry鈥. Arabic Prose being further grouped into rhymed prose (saj鈥) and continuous speech (mursal). Arabic poetry differs from Arabic Prose as it ends with a rhyme and is distinguished by its metrical rhythmical patterns which are called the 鈥榓l-Bihar.鈥 There are 16 al-Bihar which all Arabic poetry, pre and post Islamic, are based upon. ALL OF THEM. The Quran does not fall into any of these categories, That was why it mesmerised the early Arabs. Stylistics is a branch of linguistics which studies the features of the varieties of language within a given situation, context and meaning. Stylistics also tries to develop principles to explain the particular choices made by the author. In the context of stylistics, the Qur'an uses words and phrases specifically to provide an accurate and intended meaning. For example: 鈥淎nd do not consume one a, nother's wealth unjustly or send it [in bribery] to the rulers/judges in order that [they might aid] you [to] consume a portion of the wealth of the people in sin, while you know [it is unlawful].鈥 Qur鈥檃n 2:188 The Arabic word used here for 鈥榖ribery鈥 here is 鈥榯udlu鈥 which literally means to: 鈥榣ower鈥 something or send it down. This may seem a strange use of language, because the judge or ruler to whom the money is given is in a higher not a lower position vis-脿-vis the givers. The Qur鈥檃n, however, effects an appropriate correction with this use: the hand that accepts bribes is a lower hand even if it is the ruler鈥檚 or the judge鈥檚. This is how the expression 鈥榣ower it down to the judges鈥 comes in an unequalled stylistic adequacy to convey meanness and degradation of those who receive bribes. [A useful book in the English language that goes into detail about the stylistic variations in the Qur'an is the book by the academic Hussein Abdul-Raof called "Qur'anic Stylistics: A Linguistic Analysis" published by Lincom Europa in 2004. It has hundreds of examples.] Now the challenge is simple and can be outlined 1. Replicate the Qur鈥檃n鈥檚 literary form 2. Match the unique linguistic nature of the Qur鈥檃n 3. Select and arrange words like that of the Qur鈥檃n 4. Select and arrange similar grammatical particles 5. Match the Qur鈥檃n鈥檚 superior eloquence and sound 6. Equal the frequency of rhetorical devices 7. Match the level of content and informativeness 8. Equal the Qur鈥檃n鈥檚 conciseness and flexibility Taha Husayn, a renowned linguist says 鈥淏ut you know that the Qur鈥檃n is not prose and that it is not verse either. It is rather Qur鈥檃n, and it cannot be called by any other name but this. It is not verse, and that is clear; for it does not bind itself to the bonds of verse. And it is not prose, for it is bound by bonds peculiar to itself, not found elsewhere; some of the binds are related to the endings of its verses, and some to that musical sound which is all its own. " He is speaking from an academic standpoint. The Qur鈥檃n achieves its unique literary form by transcending the use of language that is common to saj鈥. S. M. Hajjaji-Jarrah in her article 鈥淭he Enchantment of Reading: Sound, Meaning, and Expression in Surat Al-Adiyat鈥, which discusses how the Qur鈥檃n achieves its uniqueness due to stylistic differences, states: 鈥溾ur鈥檃nic 鈥楢rabiyya brings forth a dazzling assembly of word meaning and sound defying the conventions of both the Arabian saj鈥 and the literary rules of classical Arabic literature鈥 Another academic study This is also reflected by Devin J. Stewart鈥檚 analysis, he states, 鈥淭he Qur鈥檃n allows inexact rhymes which are not found in later saj鈥欌漑Devin J. Stewart, Saj鈥 in the Qur鈥檃n: Prosody and Structure, p.102.] Another academic work This view is also supported by western scholarship which can be found in the writings of famous orientalists such as Arthur J. Arberry, Professor Bruce Lawrence and D.J. Stewart. Now your job is simple, show me a single[b] arab linguist[/b] that states differently. I am talking of an academic work, not opinions. Thank you |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by goggs(m): 11:51pm On Jan 12, 2012 |
(i)(i) Pre islamic arab had a predominantly oral culture, but part of it is written. How could Waraqa had "read" the gospel if it wasnt written? We would have been told he recited. While I agree that word Iqra (S奴rat al-Iqr膩)(廿賯乇丕, "Read" may mean read or recite, It leads us to another聽 in Sura 19:2 (where the Prophet was commanded to read, and he said he聽 was unlettered). It couldnt have been "recite" cos even an unlettered man could. i.) The first word Angel Gabriel spoke to Muhammad, peace be upon him, was "Iqra", which comes from the same root for Quran, and it was a command to "Recite!" (Many people, even Muslims today think this word meant 'read', but it is incorrect because the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not able to read or write). Immediately we see the importance of going back to the most authentic and original source - the Quran in Arabic - to better understand the meanings. (i) I agree with you that the words "廿賯乇丕亍" (from 賯乇丕亍丞) and "丕鬲賱" (from聽 鬲賱丕賵丞) are not used only for reading out from a written document but is also used for a verbal rendering of a statement. Even though several Islamic sources translete the word as READ. It leads me to question why the Prophet will be asked to recite and he聽 would turn it down on the basis of being unlettered? (ii)(ii) Sura 96:3 Read! And thy Lord is Most honourable,- Sura 96:4 He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
This Sura meant the written words were no strangers in pre-Islamic Arabia Iqra means recite not read,聽 check classical dictionaries or ask an arab speaker if you know one. (ii) The Quran is clear in 93:3&4: Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous who taught by the pen. If the Quran says this, then it those go to show that there were WRITTEN Arabic test in preislamic Arabia. It has NOTHING to do with the Prophet being unlettered. If there were no written text, how come God told Prophet Muhammed the above quotation? (iii)(iii) Arabic literature did not begin with the Qu'ran. In the ka'aba , there were a number of poems "hanged" on the walls http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/640hangedpoems.asp this shows that there were written words in Pre-Islamic arabia iii) True, no arguments there (iii) You accept its true, so that's settled. (iv)(iiii) While written language was not well developed in preIslamic Arabia ( before 610 AD), the influx of Jews (and their torah and better developed written language since 600 BCE) and the Christians (with their gospels) were recorded and documented especially in Medina. They provided the basis for the writting down of the Quran as shown in iv) The jews in medina had their books in hebrew, and it was only with the learned men mainly, (iv) The Jews had their books in Hebrew, yes. My position is that, as with the case in other parts of the world, it would have influence the development of written language. Pre historic civilisations borrowed and learnt skills that were spread by merchants, settlers, migration etc (v) (v) Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 (A Christian who converted to Islam wrote Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad)
The Hadith and the Koran (as I have shown) all alluded to the existence of write form of language in Arabia at the time of the Prophet.
And the existence of the Jews must have brought with them the torahs as these were developed writings from 600BCE
Modern biblical scholars have concluded that the written books (Torah) were a product of the Babylonian exilic period (c.600 BCE) and that it was completed by the Persian period (c.400 BCE). ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah ) This is a none issue
The issue is that these books were NOT IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE,聽 If you have a renowned scholar that says otherwise,聽 please show me his works. (v) Quotation from the Hadith IS an issue. I would rather follow the Hadith than your words. The Hadith is very clear; Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 (A Christian who converted to Islam wrote Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad) It is VERY clear that people DID write the Prophets revelation at a point. As per your request for scholarly work on the issue, here it is: Since most sahabah were unable to read or write, they were ordered to learn from the prisoners-of-war the simple writing of the time. Thus a group of sahabah gradually became literate. As it was initially spoken, the Quran was recorded on tablets, bones and the wide, flat ends of date palm fronds. Most chapters were in use amongst early Muslims since they are mentioned in numerous sayings by both Sunni and Shia sources, relating Muhammad's use of the Quran as a call to Islam, the making of prayer and the manner of recitation. However, the Quran did not exist in book form at the time of Muhammad's death in 632. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran (From Cambridge聽 History of Islam; Introduction to the Quran) Also The Prophet said, " Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the inkpot and the scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the ink pot)."' Then he said, "Write: 'Not equal are those Believers who sit, ", and at that time 'Amr bin Um Maktum, the blind man was sitting behind the Prophet. He said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is your order for me (as regards the above Verse) as I am a blind man?" So, instead of the above Verse, the following Verse was revealed: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah.' (4.95) (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 61, Number 512) And again It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Ishaq, that he heard Bara' talking about the Qur'anic verse: "Those who sit (at home) from among the believers and those who go out for Jihad in the way of Allah are not equal" (iv. 95). (He said that) the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered Zaid (to write the verse). He brought a shoulder-blade (of a slaughtered camel) and inscribed it (the verse) thereon. The son of Umm Maktum complained of his blindness to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). (At this) descended the revelation: "Those of the believers who sit (at home) without any trouble (illness, incapacity, disability)" (iv. 95). The tradition has been handed down through two other chains of transmitters. (Sahih Muslim, Book 20, Number 4676) There are a lot of people who will disagree with you. Your position the Quran is from a definitely not going to be an objective one聽 because you are a devout Muslim. I say so because as with matters of faith, its very subjective. A lot of scholars have some negative things to say when looking at it (Quran) on its merit, as is i.e. linguistic style, arrangement, language. Also, another set will rate it highly. All based on prior relationship with the book. There could be a few that owe no one allegiance (e.g. atheists) but would Muslims agree to this group offering a critique? I doubt.
So lets just keep our opinions to ourselves. Now your job is simple, show me a single arab linguist that states differently. I told you earlier that I would rather not go into this as some scholars will be bias either because of their faith or censorship (Arab Scholars are not as free as their western counterparts to critically examine religious texts) Let me quote a few researchers on the opinions on the Quran: (a) [The Qur'an] is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language and content, perfunctory in its linking of disparate materials, and given to the repetition of whole passages in variant versions. On this basis it can plausibly be argued that the book is the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions. - Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, (Cambridge, 1977) p. 18(b) the Qur'an is not always presented as the speech of God. Numerous critics of the Qur'an have pointed to instances where God is mentioned in the third person. Regarding these critics, Benjamin Walker writes: "Some asked what need there was for God to take oaths like any mortal being, as when he swears by the fig and olive, and by Mount Sinai (95:1); by the declining day (103:1); and by the stars, the night and the dawn (81:15-18). Above all, they asked why the Almighty had to swear on himself
Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard E. Friedman(c) From the literary point of view, the Koran has little merit. Declamation, repetition, puerility, a lack of logic and coherence strike the unprepared reader at every turn. It is humiliating to the human intellect to think that this mediocre literature has been the subject of innumerable commentaries, and that millions of men are still wasting time absorbing it - Reinach, Salomon, Orpheus: A History of Religion, (New York, 1932), p. 176, as cited in both Warraq, Quest for the Historical Muhammad, p. 9, and Katz, Bernard, The Ways of an Atheist, (Prometheus, 1999), p. 145There are many more, but I would rather leave it at that. So you see, some scholars do not share your opinion moreso proceed on any structural dissection of the text. They dismiss the text in unflattering terms. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 12:57am On Jan 13, 2012 |
I said present me with an[b] Arab Linguist[/b]: Someone who has studied THE LITERATURE of the arabic language, I gave an exact challenge; A RENOWED ARAB LINGUIST OR LITERATEURYou have given me orientalists, Who studied islamic history and read the english translation of the quran. People who were muslim haters. tbaba1234:
the Qur'an is not always presented as the speech of God. Numerous critics of the Qur'an have pointed to instances where God is mentioned in the third person. Regarding these critics, Benjamin Walker writes:
"Some asked what need there was for God to take oaths like any mortal being, as when he swears by the fig and olive, and by Mount Sinai (95:1); by the declining day (103:1); and by the stars, the night and the dawn (81:15-18). Above all, they asked why the Almighty had to swear on himself
Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard E. Friedman
The controversial thesis of Hagarism is not widely accepted. Josef Van Ess argued that "a refutation is perhaps unnecessary since the authors make no effort to prove it (the hypothesis of the book) in detail. , Where they are only giving a new interpretation of well-known facts, this is not decisive. But where the accepted facts are consciously put upside down, their approach is disastrous." R. B. Searjeant informs us that "Hagarism 鈥 is not only bitterly anti-Islamic in tone, but anti-Arabian. Its superficial fancies are so ridiculous that at first one wonders if it is just a 鈥榣eg pull鈥, pure 鈥檚poof鈥." David Waines, Professor of Islamic Studies Lancaster University states: " The Crone-Cook theory has been almost universally rejected. The evidence offered by the authors is far too tentative and conjectural (and possibly contradictory) to conclude that Arab-Jewish were as intimate as they would wish them to have been." tbaba1234:
he Qur'an is not always presented as the speech of God. Numerous critics of the Qur'an have pointed to instances where God is mentioned in the third person. Regarding these critics, Benjamin Walker writes:
"Some asked what need there was for God to take oaths like any mortal being, as when he swears by the fig and olive, and by Mount Sinai (95:1); by the declining day (103:1); and by the stars, the night and the dawn (81:15-18). Above all, they asked why the Almighty had to swear on himself
This is not related to the challenge The creator of the everything, can swear using any of his creations The Quran was not revealed in the form of a document or a book, but rather it was revealed by inspiration to Prophet Mohamed (saws) in the form of discourses over a period of 23 years; which the Noble Prophet (saws) recited and declared verbatim to his listerners. Thus, in the course of revelation, at times it seems that Allah Subhanah is addressing mankind in the first person, most times it seems the Lord is addressing Prophet Mohamed (saws) as in a conversation or the second person, and at times it seems that the Merciful Lord is speaking in the third person, narrating the Truth of what transpired in the past or what will transpire in the future! All three modes of conversation have been utilized by the All-Knowing, All Wise Lord for his chosen last and final Message, which He revealed as the Book of Guidance to all mankind until the end of time. Examples of when the Lord All-Mighty address mankind in the third person: 21. Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verse 255: Allah! There is no Allah but He the living the Self-subsisting Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to his creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High the Supreme (in glory). Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 59 Surah Hashr verses 22-24: 22 Allah is He than whom there is no other god, Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He Most Gracious Most Merciful. 23 Allah is He than whom there is no other god, The Sovereign, The Holy One, The Source of Peace (and Perfection), The Guardian of Faith, The Preserver of Safety, The Exalted in Might, The Irresistible, The Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him. 24 He is Allah, The Creator, The Evolver, The Bestower of Forms (or colors). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: Whatever is in the heavens and on earth doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, The Wise. This is part of the remarkable eloquence of the book. goggs:
(i)
(c) From the literary point of view, the Koran has little merit. Declamation, repetition, puerility, a lack of logic and coherence strike the unprepared reader at every turn. It is humiliating to the human intellect to think that this mediocre literature has been the subject of innumerable commentaries, and that millions of men are still wasting time absorbing it - Reinach, Salomon, Orpheus: A History of Religion, (New York, 1932), p. 176, as cited in both Warraq, Quest for the Historical Muhammad, p. 9, and Katz, Bernard, The Ways of an Atheist, (Prometheus, 1999), p. 145
Reinach Salomon did not read an Arabic Quran, He is not a literature expert, He did not like islam. He is a historian. Again the challenge stands, Find an Arab Linguist that says a different thing LITERARY STRUCTURE OF THE QURAN, I have highlighted, |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 1:25am On Jan 13, 2012 |
PLEASE SEE POST ABOVEgoggs:
(i)
(i) I agree with you that the words "廿賯乇丕亍" (from 賯乇丕亍丞) and "丕鬲賱" (from聽 鬲賱丕賵丞) are not used only for reading out from a written document but is also used for a verbal rendering of a statement. Even though several Islamic sources translete the word as READ. It leads me to question why the Prophet will be asked to recite and he聽 would turn it down on the basis of being unlettered?
(ii)
(ii) The Quran is clear in 93:3&4: Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous who taught by the pen. If the Quran says this, then it those go to show that there were WRITTEN Arabic test in preislamic Arabia. It has NOTHING to do with the Prophet being unlettered. If there were no written text, how come God told Prophet Muhammed the above quotation?
(iii)
(iii) You accept its true, so that's settled.
(iv)
(iv) The Jews had their books in Hebrew, yes. My position is that, as with the case in other parts of the world, it would have influence the development of written language. Pre historic civilisations borrowed and learnt skills that were spread by merchants, settlers, migration etc
(v)
(v) Quotation from the Hadith IS an issue. I would rather follow the Hadith than your words. The Hadith is very clear;
Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 (A Christian who converted to Islam wrote Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad)
It is VERY clear that people DID write the Prophets revelation at a point. As per your request for scholarly work on the issue, here it is:
Since most sahabah were unable to read or write, they were ordered to learn from the prisoners-of-war the simple writing of the time. Thus a group of sahabah gradually became literate. As it was initially spoken, the Quran was recorded on tablets, bones and the wide, flat ends of date palm fronds. Most chapters were in use amongst early Muslims since they are mentioned in numerous sayings by both Sunni and Shia sources, relating Muhammad's use of the Quran as a call to Islam, the making of prayer and the manner of recitation. However, the Quran did not exist in book form at the time of Muhammad's death in 632. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran (From Cambridge聽 History of Islam; Introduction to the Quran)
Also
The Prophet said, "Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the inkpot and the scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the ink pot)."' Then he said, "Write: 'Not equal are those Believers who sit, ", and at that time 'Amr bin Um Maktum, the blind man was sitting behind the Prophet. He said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is your order for me (as regards the above Verse) as I am a blind man?" So, instead of the above Verse, the following Verse was revealed: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah.' (4.95) (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 61, Number 512)
And again
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Ishaq, that he heard Bara' talking about the Qur'anic verse: "Those who sit (at home) from among the believers and those who go out for Jihad in the way of Allah are not equal" (iv. 95). (He said that) the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered Zaid (to write the verse). He brought a shoulder-blade (of a slaughtered camel) and inscribed it (the verse) thereon. The son of Umm Maktum complained of his blindness to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). (At this) descended the revelation: "Those of the believers who sit (at home) without any trouble (illness, incapacity, disability)" (iv. 95). The tradition has been handed down through two other chains of transmitters. (Sahih Muslim, Book 20, Number 4676) It looks like you either don't read everything i write or you glance through a lot of stuff, I will do this one last time. i.) The prophet was not a poet, he was not one of those who recited, That is why he replied: " I am not one who recites", Not everyone is a poet, not everyone can recite, ii.) I never said there were no written stuff, I can't keep repeating myself. I said: The first thing to understand here is that the Quran was revealed in an oral form at different points and at different times and was memorized by the companions and family of the prophet. The scribes are usually the last to know about a revelation. So to say he was at the 'frontline' of revelation is inaccurate. There were other scribes who maintained their faith and did their job. The scribes JOB is to write. A scribe is a person who writes books or documents by hand as a profession and helps the city keep track of its records. iii) They were a few of the companions who could write, That has never iv)&v) I think you misunderstood my request: My request was for you to show me a Scholarly work that shows that scriptures from the bible were written in arabic at the time of the prophet. It wasn't, I know there were companions who could write, The quran was preserved by both the memorization of the companions and the work of scribes. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by em枚fine2(f): 5:57pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
em枚fine:
Can religion be separated from culture?
So when one adopts Islam does such a person also partly assume the Arabic culture?
And does that mean Islam is biased to particular cultures i.e. does Islam favour and lean more to the Arabs? tbaba1234:
There is a difference between religion and culture. A muslim can maintain all aspects of his culture (his clothing, language, name ) that does not contradict with islamic values.
One does not have to change his name when he becomes muslim except the name does not have a good meaning. You do not have to wear arabic clothes, you just to ensure that you are dressed modestly within the limits of islam. You do not have to give up your language or food.
Today, Arabs make up just about 20% of the entire muslim population so muslims are a mixed bag of different tribes, languages and cultures.
The prophet (SAW) said in his final sermon:
All mankind is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over an Arab; white has no superiority over black, nor does a black have any superiority over white; [none have superiority over another] except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.
Does this answer the question? tbaba1234, sorry. . .I know I'm going back. But my question concerning Islam and Arab culture is still buzzing in my head. Well it's not necessarily about giving up one's own culture, perhaps supplementing would suffice. Are Muslims required to recite Arabic? - at least the Arabic text within the Quaran? Muslims specifically call their God "Allah", and the word Allah is Arabic. Does that thus mean that Arabic is the principle language of Muslims? Language is cultural and part of the Islamic heritage is thereore the Arabic language . . .thus Muslims whether they perceive each other as equal or not to some extent adopt or assume facets of Arabic culture i.e. language However I gather that speaking Arabic does not make one an Arab but I'm merely addressing that Arabic/Arab culture does maintain a status in Islam - most likely due to being the original language of the Quaranic scripture. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by goggs(m): 8:53pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
Sir, I think you are being unfair to me on the following; (i)Why did YOU quote western researchers to portray the beauty of the Quran and then turn around to refuse me that privilege? Thats not fair. You presented quotations from western scholars who rate the Quran highly and challenge me. I provided quotations from western scholars who criticize the Quran and tell you why Arabs will seldom carry out an objective critique of the Quran. You say; I said present me with an Arab Linguist: Someone who has studied THE LITERATURE of the arabic language,聽 I gave an exact challenge;
A RENOWED ARAB LINGUIST OR LITERATEUR
You have given me orientalists,聽 Who studied islamic history and read the english translation of the quran. People who were muslim haters.
Earlier I told you This challenge is not objective.
There are a lot of people who will disagree with you. Your position the Quran is from a definitely not going to be an objective one聽 because you are a devout Muslim. I say so because as with matters of faith, its very subjective. A lot of scholars have some negative things to say when looking at it (Quran) on its merit, as is i.e. linguistic style, arrangement, language. Also, another set will rate it highly. All based on prior relationship with the book. There could be a few that owe no one allegiance (e.g. atheists) but would Muslims agree to this group offering a critique? I doubt.
So lets just keep our opinions to ourselves.
also There are thousands of studies which call to question the authenticity and veracity of the Quran from its authorship, accuracies,聽 assumptions, language, structure, arrangement, authority, interpretations, style etc. Also, some scholars have very very unflattering view of the Quran. Quoting them will serve no purpose other than elongating the debate. I would rather stick to the main religious texts and sparingly use such texts to reinforce my position. How do really expect an Arab linguist to objectively look at the Koran from a true unbiased critical view? Its either they are Muslims or as you know, researchers in the middle east are circumspect when it come to religious inquiries. Its like asking me to go to the Rome and get a person who would criticise the Pope/Church/Bible. You quoted western researchers like A.T. Welch, a non-Muslim orientalist; Leading orientalist Kenneth Cragg; John Burton and wouldnt let me do same.聽 You also know that any serious scholarly research work is always scrutinised and opinions written, jsut because in the opinion of another researcher on a work is not the basis to dismiss it entirely. I can list several more in depth studies that have dismissed the Quran. But I still maintain my position that its not the best way to examine the Quran. (2) you dispute (a) the existence of the gospel in Arabic in聽 Arabia before the Prophet received his revelations (b) written texts in preIslamic Arabia; There was no written scripture of the bible in the Arabic language until way after the death of the prophet and It is a documented fact that christian scriptures did not exist in arabic until the death of the prophet. but I subsequently quoted Sahih Bukhari 4.56.81 where it was stated The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet) to prove that there were the scriptures in Arabic in Preislamic Arabia. You say Waraqa read the gospels in Hebrew. Again I quoted: Jonah (Yunus) 10:94, Late Meccan. "If you (Muhammad) are in doubt regarding that which We have revealed to thee, ASK those who READ the book from before you, " In this verse, Prophet Mohammed was asked to be read to from the Gospel. Since he was an Illiterate, the gospel would have been read in Arabic. then you wrote It is important to note the pre islamic arab had a predominantly oral culture. So waraqa recited/read (iqra (arabic word)) the gospel in arabic to arabs because there was no written down text in the arabic language. Remember, you earlier said he read in Hebrew, now you say he recite/read (two different things) the gospel in Arabic to Arabs. then I got you proofs otherwise; Sura 96:3 Read! And thy Lord is Most honourable,- Sura 96:4 He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- This Sura meant the written words were no strangers in pre-Islamic Arabia Arabic literature did not begin with the Qu'ran. In the ka'aba , there were a number of poems "hanged" on the walls http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/640hangedpoems.asp this shows that there were written words in Pre-Islamic arabia (to this point you wrote "True, no arguments there" meaning you agreed to it) Sahih Bukhari 4.56.814 ( A Christian who converted to Islam wrote Muhammad's revelations; then he reverted back to Christianity and claimed that Muhammad knew nothing and he wrote the Quran for Muhammad)And I concluded: The Hadith and the Koran (as I have shown) all alluded to the existence of write form of language in Arabia at the time of the Prophet. to buttress my point further, I quoted Hadiths to back up the assertion that there was a written form of Arabic Language in PreIslamic Arabia in addition to the availability of the Gospels It is VERY clear that people DID write the Prophets revelation at a point. As per your request for scholarly work on the issue, here it is:
Since most sahabah were unable to read or write, they were ordered to learn from the prisoners-of-war the simple writing of the time. Thus a group of sahabah gradually became literate. As it was initially spoken, the Quran was recorded on tablets, bones and the wide, flat ends of date palm fronds. Most chapters were in use amongst early Muslims since they are mentioned in numerous sayings by both Sunni and Shia sources, relating Muhammad's use of the Quran as a call to Islam, the making of prayer and the manner of recitation. However, the Quran did not exist in book form at the time of Muhammad's death in 632. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran (From Cambridge聽 History of Islam; Introduction to the Quran)
Also
The Prophet said, "Call Zaid for me and let him bring the[b] board, the inkpot and the scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the ink pot)."' Then he said, "Write:[/b] 'Not equal are those Believers who sit, ", and at that time 'Amr bin Um Maktum, the blind man was sitting behind the Prophet. He said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is your order for me (as regards the above Verse) as I am a blind man?" So, instead of the above Verse, the following Verse was revealed: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah.' (4.95) (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 61, Number 512)
And again
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Ishaq, that he heard Bara' talking about the Qur'anic verse: "Those who sit (at home) from among the believers and those who go out for Jihad in the way of Allah are not equal" (iv. 95). (He said that) the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered Zaid (to write the verse). He brought a shoulder-blade (of a slaughtered camel) and inscribed it (the verse) thereon. The son of Umm Maktum complained of his blindness to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). (At this) descended the revelation: "Those of the believers who sit (at home) without any trouble (illness, incapacity, disability)" (iv. 95). The tradition has been handed down through two other chains of transmitters. (Sahih Muslim, Book 20, Number 4676)
You wrote: The scribes are usually the last to know about a revelation. So to say he was at the 'frontline' of revelation is inaccurate.as you can see from the above, Zaid, a scribe, was among the FIRST to hear a revelation and record it. He WAS at the frontline of the revelation. Finally, you wrote: I think you misunderstood my request: My request was for you to show me a Scholarly work that shows that scriptures from the bible were written in arabic at the time of the prophet. It wasn't, No sir, I would rather depend on the Quran and Hadith; they are supreme and above any other. Then lastly, I never said there were no written stuff,聽 I can't keep repeating myself. As you can see from the above, your requests/assertions on the matter werent exactly consistent. Besides that I would rather stick with the Hadith and Quran for authenticating issues like this. I have shown you through the Hadiths (as shown above) the following facts; the gospels were in Arabia before the during the time of the Prophet and the art of reading and writing were wide spread. This are as follows, (a) There were the written Gospels BEFORE Prophet Mohammed was called by God and his relation (Wife' Cousin) had access/were knowledgeable in them. (b) One of Prophet's Secretaries wrote his revelations for him (before leaving Islam) (c) Written peotry was hung on the walls of the Kaaba (d) Prophet Muhammed had revelations written down on the spot through Secretaries using camel shoulder blades and ink finally, despite your earlier assertion, you contradict yourself somewhat;
I never said there were no written stuff,聽 I can't keep repeating myself.
They were a few of the companions who could write, That has never
I know there were companions who could write,
The quran was preserved by both the memorization of the companions and the work of scribes.
I expected you, like we both did earlier at different instances, to acknowledge your mistakes. We learn everyday. |
| Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know by tbaba1234: 9:41pm On Jan 13, 2012 |
em枚fine:
tbaba1234, sorry. . .I know I'm going back. But my question concerning Islam and Arab culture is still buzzing in my head.
Well it's not necessarily about giving up one's own culture, perhaps supplementing would suffice.
Are Muslims required to recite Arabic? - at least the Arabic text within the Quaran?
Muslims specifically call their God "Allah", and the word Allah is Arabic. Does that thus mean that Arabic is the principle language of Muslims?
Language is cultural and part of the Islamic heritage is thereore the Arabic language . . .thus Muslims whether they perceive each other as equal or not to some extent adopt or assume facets of Arabic culture i.e. language
However I gather that speaking Arabic does not make one an Arab but I'm merely addressing that Arabic/Arab culture does maintain a status in Islam - most likely due to being the original language of the Quaranic scripture.
First of all, the Quran is only in Arabic, The Quran states: 1. A. L. R. These are the symbols [or Verses] of the perspicuous Book. 2. We have sent it down as an[b] Arabic Qur'an[/b], in order that ye may learn wisdom. The Quran means the recitation, A translated Quran fails to carry the deep meanings of the words of the Quran: for instance God describes himself as AR-RAHMAN and Ar-Rahim which is often translated as the merciful. However there is a significant difference AR-RAHMAN describes a kind of intense mercy; one that is presently(i mean right now) being felt by everyone, things you probably take for granted. AR-Rahman can only be used for God. Ar-rahim is a more general kind of mercy, It can be used for God and humans, This is just a summarized explanation, it goes a lot deeper, So a lot of meaning is lost in translation. Answering your Question, Every muslim should have a certain portion of the Quran memorized, No matter how small. You need to memorize only the first chapter to pray the obligatory prayers. It is important however to have a deep understanding of the ones you do memorize, It transforms the praying experience. An excellent source of the chapter explanation 聽in good english is http://bayyinah.com/podcast/category/juz_amma/. The Quran is easy to memorise, like Allah says in the Quran: "And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?" (Quran 54:17) You only need arabic for the 5 daily prayers There are broadly two types of prayers in Islam, 1. The Obligatory Prayers- This is the only one you need to recite the verses of the Quran in arabic,i.e the five daily prayers. 2. Supplication- This can be said at any time, it can be said in any language you feel comfortable with. It is less formal. Allah is simply the arabic name for God. "Allah" is the same word used by Christian Arabs and Jewish Arabs centuries before Islam came till now, so it is not a word peculiar to Muslims. Arabic is an important language for muslims and is a second or third language for many muslims, The original Language of revelation is the Arabic language and 聽the message of the Quran is only complete in the Arabic Language. So yes, the language is integral. |