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humandecency
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18818
Location: This side of the black stump.
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 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| soa wrote: |
| In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of her marriage, any one who wants to prove that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage has the responsibility of telling others why is he rejecting all the other historical narratives and accepting only the one that states Ayesha’s age to be nine at the time of her marriage. ..." |
The truth concerning her age is completely irrelevant !
It is not critics of Islam, but muslems themselves who have said she was nine years old.
What does matter, is that this has never bothered muslims in the past, and have never critized, questioned or considered it to be immoral.
That there are other accounts that state different ages, is just another testimony to the unreliability of anything in the islamic records.
These other accounts were not created on the grounds of morality to contradict the pedophile charge. In fact the concept of 'pedophile' does not exist in islam.
So no-one has to prove that she was nine.
That muslims have no problems with, and accept a prophet EVEN IF he raped a nine year old has been well established and needs no proof.
Even if by some miracle, conclusive proof was discovered that she married at 19, it would not change the fact that muslims saw nothing wrong with a nine year old sex victim of the Holy Pervert.
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The Swordy Whahabian flag bears the sword, islamic symbol of peace.
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Shake Down
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 489
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:51 am Post subject: |
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humandecency,
| humandecency wrote: |
The truth concerning her age is completely irrelevant !
It is not critics of Islam, but muslems themselves who have said she was nine years old.
What does matter, is that this has never bothered muslims in the past, and have never critized, questioned or considered it to be immoral.
......
Even if by some miracle, conclusive proof was discovered that she married at 19, it would not change the fact that muslims saw nothing wrong with a nine year old sex victim of the Holy Pervert. |
When I started hanging around sunni's and hear these stories I wanted to puke. Even age 19 bothers me. FYI: I was raised by a hadith and sunni hating father from Sudan. If I believed in hadiths there is no way I could be a muslim. 
_________________
If you obeyed most of those on earth, they would misguide you from God's Way. They follow nothing but conjecture. They are only guessing. (Surat al-An'am: 116)
It will all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, then it must not be the end. |
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Hector
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 7144
Location: Astroistan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| soa wrote: |
| In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of her marriage, any one who wants to prove that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage has the responsibility of telling others why is he rejecting all the other historical narratives and accepting only the one that states Ayesha’s age to be nine at the time of her marriage. ..." |
The contradictory proposition of Moiz Amjad, aka The Learner, has already been debunked here at FFI. Basically, it involves believing non-sahih material in preference to sahih hadiths. And each and every one of Moiz Amjad's arguments contradict each other. Some say Aisha was 14 year old. Others say she was 19. Yet others say she was 15 or 16. Which one is correct? Moiz Amjad aka The Learner cannot tell you because all his sources are SECOND RATE compared to the sahih hadiths which are ALL CONSISTENT about Aisha's age being 9 years when she married and had sex with Muhammad.
So here is my refutation of Moiz Amjad once again.
***
Some modernist Islamic apologists try to cast doubt on the age of Aisha when she married and had sex with Muhammad despite the many sahih hadiths in which Aisha explicitly and directly states that she was nine years old at the time.
The most erudite of these arguments is propounded by “Learner”, or Moiz Amjad, based on the work of Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat"). Other transmitters of these arguments include TO Shavanas and Zahid Aziz.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=discussion&did=89
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm
Ali Sina has already provided some answers to these questions. Amjad had attempted to counter Sina’s answers in: http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=discussion&did=307
In the interest of intellectual curiosity I will attempt to add to this debate. However, I will apply the following rules, modeled on Islamic ones so as to be fair to both sides of the argument.
Rule No. 1: More ‘authentic’ narrations have precedence of less ‘authentic’ ones.
Rule No. 2: Internally contradictory arguments are automatically discredited and disqualified.
Rule No. 3: Imprecise dating is given less credence than more exact ones.
THE FIRST ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
| Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three. |
This is a classic STRAW MAN. There is no requirement in Islam for multiple narrations. Even a single sahih hadith is sufficient to establish Islamic laws and practices.
THE SECOND ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
| It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years. |
Another STRAW MAN. There is no requirement for a hadith to be narrated in Medinah for it to be considered sahih. The fact that no Medinans other than Hishan ibn Urwah narrated the ‘Aisha’s age’ hadiths is proof of nothing.
Many events in the Prophet’s life were narrated by single narratives as well. Does that make them invalid? No. To demand multiple, independent narrations from Medinans is just setting up a standard that does not exist – i.e. a straw man.
THE THIRD ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51).
The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:
Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [i.e. Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after shifting to Iraq. (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqalaaniy, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)
I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50) |
This absolute slander against Hisham ibn Urwah carries little or no weight for the following reasons:
1. The slanderers, including Amjad, conveniently leave out the fact that Urwah was Aisha’s own nephew, some say the son of Asma. Therefore, Hisham ibn Urwah was Aisha’s own grand-nephew and it would be logical to believe that a blood relation would know his own family’s history, particularly of an illustrious personage as Aisha, Umm al-Muminin, the Prophet’s favourite wife.
2. It has not been established that Yaqub ibn Shaibah was a more reliable scholar than Hisham ibn Urwah. The very act of slandering Aisha’s blood relation casts some doubt as to his own character.
3. Malik ibn Anas’s slander has also little credibility for the reason that he gives no reason why Aisha’s grand-nephew is unreliable to transmit his own family’s history.
4. The slander against the people of Iraq is intriguing as the slanderers neglect to inform the readers that Aisha herself and many companions of the Prophet moved to Iraq in Uthman’s time. Does that make Aisha’s hadiths unreliable? No. It just shows up the double-standards of the slanderers.
5. Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb does not have the distinction of being considered ‘sahih’. Although it may be a useful text for studying the lives of the hadith narrators, I feel one should be careful when one uses ‘non-sahih’ information to discredit otherwise ‘sahih’ information for the reasons given above. However, I note this is precisely what hadiths scholars spend their lives doing; pouring over basically ‘non-sahih’ materials in their efforts to confirm or deny the hadiths. Internal consistency and restraint against self-contradiction has never been the strong point of Islamic intelligentsia. Therefore, the application of Rule No. 1 means that the ‘Aisha’s age’ hadiths remain the most authoritative source and should be believed over what is written in such materials as Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, particularly givens the reasons above.
THE FOURTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 - 302)
The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:
When he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, Al-Zahabi, Arabic, Al-Maktabah al-Athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, pg. 301). |
This is another outright slander in which the slanderer does not correlate Hisham’s memory loss with the ‘Aisha’s age’ hadiths.
Hisham was born in 61 A.H. and died in 146 A.H. at Baghdad – meaning he was 85 years old when he died. He moved to Iraq when he was 71 years old. When did his memory fail him? The slanderer provide no answers.
THE FIFTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
The actual statements referred to in the above paragraph, their translations and their complete references are given below:
Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an ], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, Kitaab al-Tafseer, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-saa`atu Maw`iduhum wa al-sa`atu adhaa wa amarr) |
This breaks my Rule No. 1 because the precise dates of verse revelations are unknown, despite attempts by Islamic scholars to ‘estimate’ them. The best they can ever come up with is the ‘estimated period’ which can span several years.
This is what Amjad later said:
| Quote: |
The incident of the shaqq-al-Qamar (splitting of the moon) that has been mentioned in it, determines its period of revelation precisely. The traditionists and commentators are agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's Hijra to Madinah.
Ibn Hajar in his commentary "Fath al-Baariy" has indeed mentioned that the incident of the splitting of the moon took place around 5 years before the Hijrah. Nevertheless, this statement does not qualify as an "agreement" of 'traditionalists and commentators'. Maududi's referred statement, in my opinion, is not adequately substantiated. A more accurate statement would have been that all the commentators and traditionalists agree on the point that the incident of the splitting of the moon took place while the Prophet (pbuh) was in Mekkah.
As for the time of the revelation of Surah Al-Qamar, it can be estimated through the sequence of the revelation of the Surahs as given in Ibn Shihaab's "Tanzeel al-Qur'an"[2], Suyutiy's "Al-Ittiqaan"[3], and Al-Zarkashiy's "Al-Burhan fi Uloom al-Qur'an"[4]. According to each of these sources, the period of revelation of Surah Al-Qamar was the same as that of Al-Balad (90), Qaaf (50), Al-Humazah (104), Al-Tariq (86), Al-Jinn (72) and Saad (38 ). All of these Surahs are generally held to be revealed during the initial period of prophethood. Maududi, in his commentary, has acknowledged that each of these Surahs was revealed during the initial period of the Prophet's ministry. |
Despite Amjad’s assertion that the ‘splitting of the moon’ incident can be used to date the verse precisely, no such precision can be logically and textually ascribed.
All we have is the opinions of Islamic scholars that the verse was revealed about 5AH, even though the only ‘certainty’ is that this verse was revealed during the initial period of Muhammad’s ministry.
This argument is rejected because of the application of Rule No. 3 as Aisha’s age is specific (as stated in the ‘Aisha’s age’ hadiths), while the dates of verse revelations are imprecise.
THE SIXTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitaab al-jihaad wa al-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyah al-isti`anah fi al-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:
When we reached Shajarah.
It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group traveling toward Badr.
A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitaab al-jihaad wa al-siyar, Arabic, Baab Ghazwi al-nisaa wa qitalihinna ma`a al-rijaal.
Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-e-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to save them from any hindrance in their movement]."
As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitaab al-maghaazi, Baab ghazwah al-khandaq wa hiya al-ahzaab, Arabic.
Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation." |
Ali Sina refuted this argument thus:
| Quote: |
| This is a weak excuse. When the Battle of Badr and Ohud occurred Ayesha was 10 to 11 years old. She did not go to be a warrior, like the boys. She went to keep Muhammad warm during the nights. Boys who were less than 15 were sent back, but this did not apply to her. |
To which Amjad answered:
| Quote: |
| The point referred by the author can only be taken as a possibility, not as a fact till the time that the author provides clear evidence to support his opinion that the age limit set for boys did not apply to girls, in general, and Ayesha (ra), in particular. |
Amjad neglects to mention to the readers that women and young children went to the battlefields to perform other functions.
http://www.muslimhope.com/aishanine.htm
The women and young children went on the battlefield after the battle and gave water to the wounded Muslims and finished off the enemy wounded. al-Tabari vol.12 p.127,146. During the days of the battle, the women and children were there to dig graves for the dead. al-Tabari vol.12 p.107.
Therefore, it is clear that the fifteen-year age threshold applied only to boys.
THE SEVENTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:
For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age:
According to Abd al-Rahman ibn abi zannaad:
Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, pg. 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risala'h, Beirut, 1992)
According to Ibn Kathir:
She [i.e. Asma] was ten years elder to her sister [i.e. Ayesha]. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabiy, Al-jizah, 1933)
For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:
She [i.e. Asma] witnessed the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabiy, Al-jizah, 1933).
According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaaniy:
She [i.e. Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaaniy, Pg. 654, Arabic, Bab fi al-nisaa, al-Harf al-alif, Lucknow) |
Amjad’s objection to Sina’s analysis is similar to that of the previous argument.
| Sina wrote: |
| When someone gets that old, people don't care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable to the younger folks and 100 is a round figure. Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. Since in those days people did not carry birth certificates, it is very much likely that the person who reported her age to be 100 did not know that she was 10 years older than Ayesha and did not sit to make the calculations and deductions. She was not an important person and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy. This could be a genuine mistake by the narrator of the Hadith. |
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
Once again, the author is only pointing out towards a possibility. It should be kept in mind that the author is trying to establish that Ayesha (ra) was nine years old at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh). The author should be reminded that pointing out mere possibilities of error in the given information would not serve his purpose. Obviously, contrary to what the author contends, it is also "Possible" that the information given in the given in the cited paragraph is correct.
The author should also keep in mind that the target of my writings on the issue is not to "prove" that Ayesha (ra) was "X" years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh). On the contrary, my objective was merely to show that the generally held view regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is not based upon contradiction-free information. |
This argument is refuted on the basis of the application of Rule No. 1. The transmitters of the age difference between Aisha and Asma, and Asma’s age and date of death are historians.
There is, therefore, no basis to assign more credence to these historians because their historical works do not enjoy the distinction of being considered ‘sahih’, unlike the ‘Aisha’s age’ hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim.
THE EIGHTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre-Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.
The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:
All four of his [i.e. Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives - the names of whom we have already mentioned - during the pre-Islamic period. (Tarikh al-umam wa al-mamloo'k, Al-Tabari, Vol. 4, Pg. 50, Arabic, Dar al-fikr, Beirut, 1979) |
Sina’s response seems to be the best I’ve found, and left unrefuted by Amjad.
| Sina wrote: |
| Tabari’s narratives do not have the distinction to be known Sahih. Even if we assumed that this narratives is not forged, there is no reason to discard all those strong, detailed and explicit hadithes that concord with each other and confirm the age of Ayesha was 9 when she married the Prophet, to accept this narrative that, could very well be also an innocent slip on the part of the narrator. People remember important events better than those that are relatively insignificant. The date of the birth of the children of Abu Bakr was not an important subject for Muslims to record. But the details of the Prophet's marriages were more important. As you can read in the story of Safiyah's wedding even the kind of food served is recorded. |
I add that application of Rule No. 1 means that Tabari’s narratives have lesser credibility than the sahih ‘Aisha’s age’ hadiths.
I further note the information below from http://www.muslimhope.com/aishanine.htm
| Quote: |
| al-Tabari vol.11 p.141 footnote 766 says that al-Tabari is contradictory here. He also said A’isha was 8-9 when the marriage was consummated. Tabari reported a great number of things, and he or his sources were mistaken on something. However, a person would remember something important better than something unimportant. Al-Tabari had three places where A’isha would be 8-10 when the marriage was consummated, and only one place that would make her somewhat older. |
Application of Rule No. 2 would also seem to discredit this information from Tabari.
THE NINTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh). |
The best response I’ve found is from the 'muslimhope' site:
| Quote: |
1. Nobody today really knows the order. In general there is lengthy disagreement on the order of who accepted Islam, as al-Tabari vol.5 p.80-87; vol.12 p.38 discuss. If they cannot even agree on the first five men, how can they know the 21st?
2. A’isha never converted to Islam, because she never remembered a time when Mohammed did not come by twice a day and her parents were not Muslims. This is prior to the first migration to Ethiopia (617 A.D.) (Bukhari 5:245 p.158).
3. ‘Umar became a Muslim just after the first migration to Ethiopia (617 A.D.) according to Ibn Ishaq p.155,156. So what Ibn Hisham counts as A’isha’s "conversion" could be between birth and three years old. |
THE TENTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
Unfortunately, I do not have the primary reference to this argument at the moment. The secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg. 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan |
Again, Tabari does not enjoy the distinction of being considered ‘sahih’. Application of Rule No. 1 would mean that it should be given lesser weight than that of the sahih ‘Aisha’s age’ hadiths.
Further, the ‘muslimhope’ link refutes this on the grounds of incorrect logic.
| Quote: |
| Even if this account is accurate, Arabs both then and today often betrothed girls soon after they were born. Abu Bakr had other daughters and it might have been one of them. |
THE ELEVENTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut. |
Sina has successfully refuted this argument.
| Quote: |
| This explanation is absolutely incorrect. Bikr means virgin and, just as in English is not age specific. In fact Ayesha was the second wife of Muhammad (after Khadijah) but Muhammad did not consummate his marriage with her for three years because she was too young. Instead he had to content himself with Umma Salamah, until Ayesha matured a little bit more. It would not have made sense to marry a beautiful woman like Ayesha and wait for three years to take her home. |
And Amjad has agreed:
| Quote: |
| The author is quite right. Bikr in the Arabic language does, in fact, mean 'virgin'. However, I was actually referring to the usage of the word, not its literal meaning. It is correct that literally the word 'Bikr', like the word "virgin" refers to a biological reality, however, also just as the word 'virgin', the word 'Bikr', in the Arabic language, is used for a young woman, who has not yet had sexual contact, not for a child. |
THE TWELFTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference follows:
Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Kaa`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-Isabah fi Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, Pg. 377, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-Haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978) |
This is the muslimhope refutation, clearly applying Rule No. 1:
| Quote: |
| Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #29 p.115-116 actually says that Fatima was 29 years old when she died (six months after Mohammed), which makes her ten years older than A’isha. So somebody forgot a date somewhere. The authoritative hadiths of Sunan Nasa’i would generally be trusted more than Ibn Hajar, Regardless, though A’isha was younger. |
Sina has also refuted the accuracy of the information:
| Sina wrote: |
| Of course this information cannot be taken as correct. If Ayesha was five years older than Fatimah, and Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old, then Ayesha was only 30 years younger than the Prophet. So at the time of her marriage when the Prophet was 54, Ayesha must have been 24 yeas old. This is not certainly correct, for the reasons explained above and also it contradicts the Hadith that the apologist quoted about the age of Asma, Ayesha’s sister, who according to that Hadith was 10 years older that Ayesha and died in 73 Hijra. So at the time of Hijra Asma must have been 100 –73 = 27 years old, but according to this Hadith she was 34 years old. |
Judging from his celebrated work, Fateh al-Bari, one can see that Ibn Hajar reports a great many things, both credible and discredited, correct and incorrect, in making his conclusions. The point should be noted that Fateh al-Bari is THE commentary on Sahih Bukhari, and Ibn Hajar appears to accept the veracity of the ‘Aisha’s age’ hadiths in Bukhari’s collection.
THE THIRTEENTH ARGUMENT
| Moiz Amjad wrote: |
| In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated. |
No credence should be given to mere ‘opinion’ when there are sahih hadiths that explicitly state that Aisha married and had sex with Muhammad when she was nine years old.
CONCLUSION
Moiz Amjad has presented a series of erudite and detailed arguments as to why the generally accepted ‘Sunni’ understanding of Aisha’s age (i.e. nine-years-old) when she married and had sex with Muhammad, based on commonly known narratives, is erroneous and contradictory.
However, on closer inspection, it appears he has produced arguments that can be broadly categorized into five categories:
A. Unjustified slanders against Hisham ibn Urwah and the Iraqi narrators.
B. The use of non-sahih information to refute otherwise sahih hadiths.
C. The use of secondary, indirect sources in preference of direct testimonies.
D. The use of ‘imprecise’ dating in preference to specific dates and statements of age.
E. Personal opinion.
For these reasons, I reject Moiz Amjad’s attempt to discredit the ‘Aisha age’ hadiths, particularly those of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.
I also note Amjad does not provide an age for Aisha when she married and had sex with Muhammad, despite Amjad's considerable scholarship. This, in my opinion, is mere ‘muddying of the waters’ without adding to the clarity of this important issue.
Regards,
Hector.
24 September 2004.
For the sake of scholarship I will now attach all the ‘Aisha age’ hadiths, both sahih and less sahih, noting that there is NO CONTRADICTION in the sahih hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim and Ibn Majah, and also those of Abu Dawud. The only contradictions are with those of ‘lesser’ authenticity such as the works of Tabari.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3309:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Number 236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Number 234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, Number 2116
Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4916
Narrated AbuUsamah: The tradition mentioned above (No. 4915) has also been transmitted by AbuUsamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: "With good fortune." She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair was up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine.
When Hadrat ‘A’isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven." Sunan Nasa’i 1 #18 p.108
A’isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed’s house. Ibn-i-Majah 3:1876 p.133
A’isha was married at seven, went to Mohammed’s house at nine, and was 18 when Mohammed died. According to al-Zawa’id, its isnad is sahih according to the condition of Bukhari. However Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father, so it is munqata (has a gap) Ibn-i-Majah 3:1877 p.134
‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.129-131. Muhammad b. ‘Amr is one of the transmitters.
‘Aisha was 6-7 when married, and came the marriage was consummated when she was 9-10, three months after coming to Mecca al-Tabari vol.7 p.7. The chain of transmission includes an unnamed man from the Quraysh.
Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
_________________
What sort of man would f*ck a sweet little prepubescent nine-year-old child who liked playing with dolls and swings? Mo the demon Pedophile. |
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manovpeace
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 131
Location: A guest of her Majesty
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:15 am Post subject: |
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About my pic.
I thought about Gandhi, or a Nobel man of peace like Yasseer Arafat, and then someone called Yvonne Riddley said Mr. Abu Hamza was a real sweet man. And he looks more cool than the other two.
Question for Idlefree1 and peace to all.
If there wasn't a Muhamid, then who's the messenger in the koran that gets to have fifth of all the women slaves together with Allah. Does that mean the messenger gets half of a fifth and Allah gets the other half of a fifth? Anyway, what does Allah want with women slaves for?
Another bit in the koran was talking about women, and then it says what the "rihgt hand posesses". It's pretty obvious it's a sword, but what's that got to do with marrying women?
BTW
I'm thinking about joining a peaceful religion or two but find this koran a bit hard to follow. Some Hindus say Gandhi preaches "Dimitude" so that's got tobe another religion for me to consider cause he's a man of peace. So I might sign up with both Islam and Dimmitude. Next time I'm in a bookshop I'll have to get their holy book of Dimmitude and see if it's any easier to follow. Or is there an online vergion?
Thers another relgion that has 72 versions. That's too confusing for me.
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3.85 Only Islam is accepted because it's the only tolerant religion.
That's Y all other intolerant religions r 2b stamped out.
"109.006 To you be your Way, and to me mine."
"A poo Hamzer is a sweet man" - Evonne Wriggly. |
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justakaffir
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 324
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Shake Down
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 489
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:35 am Post subject: |
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WOW!!! I thought that only happened in Arkansas and Noth Carolina. 
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If you obeyed most of those on earth, they would misguide you from God's Way. They follow nothing but conjecture. They are only guessing. (Surat al-An'am: 116)
It will all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, then it must not be the end. |
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Mersk
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 5764
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The first offence was committed on his eldest daughter from 1994 until 1998 when she was six to 10 while the second offence was committed on the other daughter between 1996 and 1999 when she was six to nine.
He also raped his third daughter between 2000 and May 3, 2002 when she was six to eight. |
Where and how did this father get the idea 6 year old is the right age to have sex with girls?? 6 years old is the common denominator.
Last edited by Mersk on Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Always_Kafir
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 2530
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Why Muh-Mad married 11 wives ? |
Because, He was a sexual pervert, lecher.
Bukhari:V5B59N524 “The Muslims said among themselves, ‘Will Safiyah be one of the Prophet’s wives or just a lady captive and one of his possessions?’”
Muhammad was guilty of every sex crime known to man: pedophilia, incest, rape, polygamy, adultery, womanizing, fornication, sexism, and abetting prostitution. Worst of all, he rewarded his mercenaries by dividing captured young girls among them. It’s little wonder his Qur’anic paradise was so perverted. |
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IronMan
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Mohamed was the Greatest Sex Machine the World has ever known!!!!
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PeaceOnEarth
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1564
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Idolfree1 wrote: |
Peace be upon you,
| Quote: |
| do you suggest Mohammed didn't marry 11 women? |
I suggest that it is not logical to accept something you cant VERIFY as the truth. |
Explain to me then, how you accept that Quran was a God's revelation to Muhammad?
How can you eliminate the possibilities that:
(a) Muhammad made up Quran
(b) Satan revealed Quran to Muhammad
| Idolfree1 wrote: |
| Certain groups define that type of "reasoning' as BEARING FALSE WITNESS. |
Lots of groups also say the same thing about Muhammad's claim that he had a revelation from God.
| Idolfree1 wrote: |
| What kind of GUIDANCE would marying 11 women be?[/b] |
We don't know. You tell us. That is what the original message is questioning. Thanks for reiterating. We all agree that it is poor guidance on Muhammad's part and Allah's part to let Muhammad marry 11 women. It undermines his credibility and one should begin to suspect whether there is any truth to his claim that Quran is from God.
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"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." - Oliver Wendell Holmes |
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JAK
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 80
Location: Not far from my Computer
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Dad rapes his kids 6,8,9 in Malaysia!
Where and how did this father get the idea 6 year old is the right age to have sex with girls?? 6 years old is the common denominator. |
You see! Mohamad is not pedophile, its a "normal" thing to lusted over 6 years old girl!    
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That woman in my avatar, isn't she beautiful?
Just Another Kaffir |
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