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Rebuttal: Does “Kyrios” really imply Deity”? A Classic case why Ahmed Eldin should never again do interfaith debating!

 

By Quennel Gale

 

 

 

 

Here is the crowning jewel of a Muslim propagandist destruction. Here we will address Mr. Eldin’s rebuttal (http://answering-christianity.com/ahmed_eldin/Kyrios_rebuttal.htm) to mine as well as show you why he should never write articles for “Answering-Christianity” and Osama Abdallah (unless, of course, Osama’s intention is to discredit and humiliate Islam and Muslims which he is doing great job of). We will even address his appeal to “Allah” in the Arabic Bible and Ahmed Deedat, whose arguments are not only self-destructing for any Muslim who tries to use them but also point out examples that Mr. Eldin really can’t answer. Sit back and relax since this is going to be a very good one.

 

 Answering his first response:

 

This desperate Christian fails to realize that I am talking about the word “Lord” in the context of what Jesus said about himself, not in an Islamic context. It is obvious that this Christian kid cannot defend the issue of the “Lord” and he is attacking to me describing me an ignorant Muslim that I do not know about the context of the word “Lord” in the Quran, indeed very funny. If Gale accepts Jesus as Lord and from that concludes that he is his god then he must accept as his gods other biblical prophets because they are described also as lords. Gale continues barking by saying that these prophets are called lords in a different context not in a deity like Jesus. I am asking “so what”? Are they not called Lords?. The context of Jesus lordship must be analyzed from his own words not by others, especially not from the antichrist Paul who corrupted the true teachings of Jesus. I wonder why this kid Gale did not refute the links that I posted about this false Apostle. Read:

 

http://islamic-answers.com/jesus__words_only

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Pauline_Corruption_of_Biblical_Analysis.pdf (a must read)

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Jude_s_Epistle__More_Evidence_of_Rift_Between_
Jerusalem_and_Paul__.pdf

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Was_Paul_or_James__Church_the_more_succesfull_Evangelist.pdf

http://islamic-answers.com/jesus_or_paul_____audio_lecture_

http://islamic-answers.com/christianity

But also we must not forget what Paul himself said about himself.

 

 

Response:

 

Mr. Eldin tries to divert attention away from the Quran because he is aware that the arguments he set forth from the Bible exposes Muhammad as a fraud. For instance, the Quran clearly condemns the use of Lord for anyone other than Allah:

 

Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To God in Islam)? S. 3:80 Y. Ali

 

Yet Mr. Eldin managed to quote references where prophets are called and accept the title Lord:

 

Jesus is called “Lord” because is a respectful title for him. He is called “Lord” in the same way as Prophet Abraham called.

 

"Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord (Abraham) being old also?" Genesis 18:12

Also, like Esau:

"And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:" Genesis 32:4

Like Joseph:

"And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Genesis 44:20

Like David: "And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid." 1 Samuel 25:24

 

Thus, if the Quran is correct then all of these prophets committed the sin of shirk since they permitted others to identify them as Lord, thereby associating themselves with Allah! In light of this it is ironic that Mr. Eldin says that:

 

If Gale accepts Jesus as Lord and from that concludes that he is his god then he must accept as his gods other biblical prophets because they are described also as lords. Gale continues barking by saying that these prophets are called lords in a different context not in a deity like Jesus. I am asking “so what”? Are they not called Lords?.

 

But isn’t this the same logic employed by the Quran? Doesn’t the Quran associate the title Lord with divinity? If the Quran is to be believed then wouldn’t this mean that all of these prophets basically identified or allowed others to identify them as gods? Moreover, doesn’t this refute the assertion of the Quran that Allah didn’t permit the prophets to call themselves Lord when the very examples set forth by Mr. Eldin shows that they did?  

 

Thus, it is not surprising that Mr. Eldin wants to deflect attention away from what his satanic scripture teaches regarding this issue.

 

Returning to the issue at hand, Mr. Eldin wants brush aside the fact that context is the essential key element that helps to determine whether Lord is being used as a title of respect, in reference to one who is superior in rank and position, or in relation to Deity. As both Shamoun and I demonstrated, the NT uses the word Lord, or more specifically “Kyrios,” as a synonym for God’s covenant name YHWH. We cited references where the NT quotes an OT text which uses the name YHWH and substitutes it with “Kyrios”. We further showed how the NT writers applied to Jesus specific OT texts which speak of YHWH, proving that the NT authors were clearly calling Jesus Lord in the sense of his being YHWH.  

 

Thus, the reason orthodox Christians do not worship the prophets as God is because none of these other prophets are identified as having the exclusive characteristics of God, none of them are said to perform the works which God alone could perform, and no inspired writer ever applied an OT passage which speaks of Yahweh to these prophets.

 

And yet Jesus is said to have the exclusive characteristics of God, can perform the works which God alone can perform, and there are several OT references which speaks of Yahweh that are applied to him! Here are some examples to help drive home this point:

 

"And this was why the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did this on the sabbath. But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father is working still, AND I AM WORKING.’ This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal (ison) with God." John 5:16-18

 

We read in Scoffield’s notes on the Greek text that:

 

Literally, “His own Father”-Greek- patera idion. It is clear that the Jews understood THAT JESUS WAS CLAIMING TO BE GOD.’” (Scoffield NKJV, footnote on John 5:18; pg 843; 1989)

 

Jesus by his own admission is claiming to be God here! As Scoffield’s notes imply, the words “patera idion” indicates that God was Jesus’ Father in a unique and different way which made him equal with God. Just as the late, world-renowned Greek NT scholar A.T. Robertson noted:

 

But also called God his own Father (alla kai patera idion elege ton qeon). "His own" (idion) IN A SENSE NOT TRUE OF OTHERS. That is precisely what Jesus meant by "My Father." See Romans 8:32 for o idioß uioß, "his own Son." Making himself equal with God (ison eauton poiwn twi qewi). Isoß is an old common adjective (in papyri also) and means equal. In Philippians 2:6 Paul calls the Pre-incarnate Christ isa qewi, "equal to God" (plural isa, attributes of God). Bernard thinks that Jesus would not claim to be isoß qewi because in John 14:28 he says: "The Father is greater than I." And yet he says in John 14:7 that the one who sees him sees in him the Father. Certainly the Jews understood Jesus to CLAIMED EQUALITY WITH THE FATHER IN NATURE AND PRIVILEGE AND POWER as also in John 10:33; John 19:7. Besides, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus on this point, it was open and easy for him to deny it and to clear up the misapprehension. This is precisely what he does not do. On the contrary Jesus gives a powerful apologetic in defence of his claim to equality with the Father (verses John 19-47). (Source)

 

Jesus was essentially saying that because God was his spiritual (not physical) Father in a special manner he had the right to perform certain functions and to act in certain ways that no other child of God could. Thus, by making such an assertion Jesus was expressly claming to have THE VERY SAME NATURE OF GOD HIMSELF.

 

Furthermore, Jesus applies to himself certain titles which belong to God exclusively such as “First and Last”:

 

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I WAS DEAD, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.’" Revelation 1:17-18

To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, WHO DIED AND CAME TO LIFE AGAIN." Revelation 2:8

 

The following examples demonstrate that this is a Divine title used of God alone:

 

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD -with the first of them and with the last—I am he.” Isaiah 41:4

 

This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6

 

Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.” Isaiah 48:12

 

Even the Quran, Mr. Eldin’s satanic book, agrees with the Bible regarding this point:

 

He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things. S. 57:3

 

Mr. Eldin cannot quote a single prophet or angel, whether in the Holy Bible or the Quran, ever identifying himself as the First and the Last. Other exclusive Divine prerogatives which Jesus claims to have include the following:

 

"... And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men... And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, `My son, your sins are forgiven.' But there were some of the scribes sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, `Why does this man speak that way? HE IS BLASPHEMING; WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS BUT GOD ALONE?' And immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, `Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven"; or to say, "Arise take up your pallet and walk"? But in order that you may know that THE SON OF MAN HAS AUTHORITY ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS'- He said to the paralytic- `I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.' And he rose and immediately took up the pallet and went out in the sight of all; so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, `We have never seen anything like this.'" Mark 2:3, 5-12

 

The scribes correctly understood that for Jesus to claim that he could forgive sins meant that he was identifying himself as God. Instead of correcting their understanding, Jesus reinforces it by affirming his authority to both heal and forgive the paralytic. This is astonishingly reminiscent of what the OT attributes to Yahweh:

 

"Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits-WHO FORGIVES ALL YOUR SINS AND HEALS ALL YOUR DISEASES," Psalm 103:2-3

 

The Jews clearly understood that Jesus was identifying himself with God; Muslims of today want us to deny this fact when the people who lived with Jesus at that time knew exactly what he was saying. Now look at this passage:

 

"BUT OF THE SON he (God) says, 'THY THRONE O GOD, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; THEREFORE GOD, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades.'" Hebrews 1:8-9 RSV

 

Here, the Father calls Jesus God and says that his throne or reign lasts forever and ever!

 

As for the part dealing with anointing, "to anoint" means to appoint someone and set him aside for the service of God. God used a person to anoint another person all the time which is seen in this example from I Samuel 16:2-3, and 13:

 

And Samuel said, "How can I go? If Saul hears it, he will kill me." But the LORD said, "Take a heifer with you, and say, "I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.' Then invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; YOU SHALL ANOINT FOR ME THE ONE I NAME TO YOU." 1 Samuel 16:2-3

 

Then SAMUEL TOOK THE HORN OF OIL AND ANOINTED HIM IN THE MIDST OF HIS BROTHERS; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah. 1 Samuel 16:13

 

So we shouldn't find it hard to fathom how God (the Father) could anoint God (the Son)! Another line of evidence supporting the Deity of Christ is the fact that the Bible says that God has never been seen, specifically God the Father:

 

“‘But,’ he said, ‘you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.’” Exodus 33:20

 

Yet both the Old and New Testaments refer to God appearing to people on more than one occasion:

 

“So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, ‘Let me go, for it is daybreak.’ But Jacob replied, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ The man asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘Jacob,’ he answered. Then the man said, ‘Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.’ Jacob said, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he replied, ‘Why do you ask my name?’ Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, ‘It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.’” Genesis 32:24-30

 

“In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.’ At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke. ‘Woe to me!’ I cried. ‘I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.’” Isaiah 6:1-5

 

“Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking. He said to me, ‘Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.’ As he spoke, the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet, and I heard him speaking to me. He said: ‘Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against me; they and their fathers have been in revolt against me to this very day. The people to whom I am sending you are obstinate and stubborn. Say to them, “This is what the Sovereign LORD says.” And whether they listen or fail to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them.’” Ezekiel 1:26-28, 2:1-5

 

The NT helps us piece all of this together:

 

"No one has ever seen God. It is GOD THE ONLY SON, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known." John 1:18 NRSV

 

 

John is basically saying that when God appeared in the OT in a visible form that this wasn’t the Father but the GOD THE SON who showed up! And note, once again, how this reaffirms the point of Jesus being God’s Son in a unique manner. Jesus is the Son who has the very nature of God and could therefore make God known to man. So we need to ask Mr. Eldin this:

  1. How many prophets or angels were called GOD THE ONLY SON like Jesus?
  2. How many prophets or angels did God the Father call GOD and tell them that their throne would last forever?
  3. How many prophets or angels claimed to be the very “First and Last” like God Almighty?
  4. How many prophets or angels claimed to be equal with God?

 

The foregoing examples show why Christians believe that Jesus is called Lord in a different and unique sense since there is nobody else who is described in such an exalted and majestic manner.  Mr. Eldin makes another attempt of slandering the beloved Apostle Paul:

 

But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.( 2 Corinthians 12:16)

 

This antichrist also said:

 

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? (Romans 3:7)

 

Yes, you are a sinner and a liar.

 

Response:

 

Is it me or do all Muslims parrot the same outdated arguments that have been refuted over and over again? There is no need to reinvent the wheel here by providing a response of our own since Sam Shamoun has addressed these very allegations:

 

Paul on Lying 

Muslims often claim that Paul admitted to lying in Romans 3:7-8. Yet when we actually read these verses in context, a different picture altogether arises. It is clear that Paul was speaking figuratively. Paul was addressing how man's unrighteousness manifests God's righteous judgment more clearly. Paul then addresses a hypothetical question a person might ask that if in fact one's falsehood proves that God is righteous, then why does God condemn the individual? Here is the passage in question:  

“But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? ‘If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?’ Why not say - as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say – ‘Let us do evil that good may result’? Their condemnation is deserved.” Romans 3:5-8  

Interestingly, Paul indicates that it was deceitful men who were slanderously accusing the Apostle of condoning sin and falsehood, a charge to which Paul places under the condemnation of God.  

Here is Paul’s views regarding lying and deception:

 

"For our boast is this: the testimony of our conscience that we behaved in the world with simplicity and godly sincerity, not by earthly wisdom but by the grace of God, and supremely so toward you." 2 Corinthians 1:12

“Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God." 2 Corinthians 2:17  

“Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." 2 Corinthians 4:2  

"but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger; by PURITY, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love; BY TRUTHFUL SPEECH, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left; through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, AND YET ARE TRUE; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as punished, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything." 2 Corinthians 6:4-10

"Make room in your hearts for us. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one." 2 Corinthians 7:2

"Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ." Galatians 1:10

"Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?" Galatians 4:16  

"You know, brothers, that our visit to you was not a failure. We had previously suffered and been insulted in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in spite of strong opposition. For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts. You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed-God is our witness. We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else. As apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you, but we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us. Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed." 1 Thessalonians 2:1-10  

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator." Colossians 3:5-10  

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (Source)

 

Paul basically addresses a possible objection which a person may raise that one should continue lying if this further glorifies God and refutes it by saying that one must be truthful! And:

 

These passages should have given Zawadi a hint that he may have misunderstood something here. In light of the foregoing let us now look at the immediate context of 2 Corinthians 12 to get the bigger picture:

"I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I was not at all inferior to these super-apostles, even though I am nothing. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. For in what were you less favored than the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong! Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty and got the better of you by deceit. Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you? I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps? Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? It is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ, and all for your upbuilding, beloved. For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish--that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder. I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced. 2 Corinthians 12:11-21

The context shows that Paul was using sarcasm and a touch of irony since in this epistle Paul was dealing with accusations raised against him by some opponents who had influenced the believers at Corinth to doubt the Apostle’s sincerity. This point comes out more clearly in the chapters which precede and follow chapter 12:

"I, Paul, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ--I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold toward you when I am away!-- I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of walking according to the flesh. For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete. Look at what is before your eyes. If anyone is confident that he is Christ's, let him remind himself that just as he is Christ's, so also are we. For even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be ashamed. I do not want to appear to be frightening you with my letters. FOR THEY SAY, ‘His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.’ Let such a person understand that what we say by letter when absent, we do when present. Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding. But we will not boast beyond limits, but will boast only with regard to the area of influence God assigned to us, to reach even to you. For we are not overextending ourselves, as though we did not reach you. We were the first to come all the way to you with the gospel of Christ. We do not boast beyond limit in the labors of others. But our hope is that as your faith increases, our area of influence among you may be greatly enlarged, so that we may preach the gospel in lands beyond you, without boasting of work already done in another's area of influence. ‘Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.’ For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends." 2 Corinthians 10:1-18

"For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things. Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:5-15

"This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them-- since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God. Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? --unless indeed you fail to meet the test! I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. But we pray to God that you may not do wrong--not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. Your restoration is what we pray for. For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down." 2 Corinthians 13:1-10

Paul was not admitting to his opponents’ claims, but was reprimanding the Corinthians for believing these slanderous lies about him when they should have known better and been the ones defending him. This is why virtually all commentators agree that Paul was using sarcasm and irony in 2 Corinthians 12:16 in order to embarrass the Corinthians for believing the slanders raised against him:

I did not myself burden you (egw ou katebarhsa umaß). First aorist active of late verb katabarew, to press a burden down on one. Only here in N.T. Crafty (panourgoß). Old word from pan, all, and ergo, to do anything (good or bad). Good sense is skilful, bad sense cunning. Only here in N.T. and Paul is quoting the word from his enemies. With guile (dolwi). Instrumental case of doloß, bait to catch fish with. The enemies of Paul said that he was raising this big collection for himself. Moffatt has done well to put these charges in quotation marks to make it plain to readers that Paul is ironical. (Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament; online source; underline emphasis ours)

But be it so, I did not burden you…
These words are not spoken by the apostle in his own person of himself, but in the person of his adversaries, and contain a concession and an objection of theirs, but be it so; they granted that he had not burdened the Corinthians, that he had took nothing of them himself for preaching the Gospel; they owned that he had preached it freely; this was so clear a point, and so flagrant a case, that they could not deny it; yet they insinuated to the Corinthians, and objected to the apostle, that though he did not receive anything from them with his own hands, yet he craftily and cunningly made use of others to drain their purses, and receive it for him; and which is suggested in the next clause:

nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile;
so say the false apostles of me; for these are not the words of the apostle in his own person; nor to be understood of any spiritual craft, or lawful cunning and prudent artifices used by him, to allure and draw the Corinthians into a good liking and opinion of the Gospel and of his ministry, and so caught them, and was the happy means of their conversion; but they are spoken in the person of the false apostles, charging him with a wicked and criminal craftiness, by making use of other persons in a sly underhanded way, to get this church's money, when he pretended to preach the Gospel freely; to which he answers in the next verse. (John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible; online source; underline emphasis ours) (http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_paul_deceiver.htm)

 

What makes this is bad for Mr. Eldin is that he doesn’t accept Paul because he thinks that the inspired Apostle condoned lying and deceit and yet he continues to follow Allah, who literally claims to be the best (or worst?) deceiver of them all?

 

The Hypocrites - they seek to deceive Allah but it is Allah Who DECEIVES them. When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance; S. 4:142  

Ibn Kathir comments:  

In verse nine of Al-Baqarah, Allah says: <They (think) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves.> While in the above verse, Allah says: <Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He who deceives them.> There is no doubt that Allah does not deceive as He is All-Aware of secrets. But, the hypocrites, owing to their ignorance, believe that they can trick Allah on the Day of Judgment them with the same external shows of piety and honesty that they used to gain advantage with the people and to get verdicts in the law courts in this world. Allah knows their intentions. Similarly, Allah says in the following verse: <On the Day when Allah will resurrect them all together, then they will swear to you.> (58:18).  

After claiming that Allah does not deceive, Ibn Kathir goes on to say:  

<But it is Allah Who deceives them.> It is Allah Who tempts them in their going over the limits and their misguidance, and DECEIVES them into reaching false perceptions regarding the purpose of this life and the trial on the Day of Judgment when their falsehood will fail. It is reported in a hadith that: ‘Allah commands that a servant enter Paradise, as it may seem to people, then takes him to Fire.’" (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Sura An-Nisa, ayat 24-147, abridged by Sheikh Muhammad Nasib Ar-Rafa'i [Al-Firdous Ltd., London 2000], pp. 207-208)  

Therefore, Muslims themselves admit that their God is a deceiver.  

Further passages from the Qur'an about the deceiving nature of Allah include:  

And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54  

Remember how the unbelievers schemed against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or to slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They scheme and plot, but the best of schemers is Allah. S. 8:30  

The term for scheme in Arabic is makara and denotes one who is a deceiver, a conniver, a schemer. It is always used in a negative sense. Allah is thus seen as the best of deceivers, the premiere schemer and conniving one.  

Muslim theologians themselves admit to the negative connotation of the Arabic term. For example Dr. Mahmoud M. Ayoub in his book, The Quran and Its Interpreters, Volume II, The House of Imran, brings up the question of,  

"how the word makr (scheming or plotting), which implies deceitfulness or dishonesty, could be attributed to God." (Ibid. [1992 State University of New York Press, Albany], p. 165)  

After listing several Muslim sources he quotes ar-Razi as arguing that "scheming (makr) is actually an act of deception aiming at causing evil. It is not possible to attribute deception to God. Thus the word is one of the muttashabihat [multivalent words of the Quran]." (Ibid., p. 166; all bold italic emphasis ours) (Source)

 

Moreover, Mr. Eldin needs to stop propagating questions as declarations. He continues:

 

So how can we trust this man? Gale uses the words of Sam Shamoun by saying:

 

It isn’t merely the fact that Jesus is addressed as Kurios that leads Christians to believe he is Yahweh, BUT IN THE MANNER in which the NT writers use this Greek word for Christ that leads them to this conclusion. (http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_jesus_kurios.htm)

As I said I do not care how Paul described Jesus, but I care what Jesus said about himself. Jesus never presented himself as God. In addition, I challenge this kid Gale to present me words from Jesus that says that he is God. Only Paul describes Jesus as God. And again he only tries to describes him as god, he never said, “Jesus is God Almighty” 

 

Response:

 

We already answered this challenge of Jesus claiming to be God in this article:

 

http://answer-islam.org/HedidsayhewasGod.html          

 

This challenge was thoroughly met.

 

Answering his second response:                   

 

Again, please read his response and then mine.

 

The desperate Christian presents the quote “Acts 9:3-20” as the word of Jesus indeed very funny. This ignorant or more correctly uneducated on Christianity does not know that this quote describes the so-called vision that Paul had. This is a story that Paul said which also we could find in it many contradictions:

 

Please read the following article concerning the contradiction and the confusion that Paul committed with his “vision”

 

http://muslim-responses.com/Did_he_really_meet_Jesus/Did_he_really_meet_Jesus_ 

 

Response:

 

Paul didn’t contradict himself with this vision, and I’ve continuously warned Mr. Eldin about relying on Sami Zaatari for his information. Sami Zaatari basically has parroted Shabbir Ally, the inventor of this contradiction here. However this has been answered for over 6 years now:

 

a.       55. When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice (Acts 9:7), or did they not (Acts 22:9)?

(Category: misunderstood the Greek usage or the text is compatible with a little thought)

Although the same Greek word is used in both accounts (akouo), it has two distinct meanings: to perceive sound and to understand. Therefore, the explanation is clear: they heard something but did not understand what it was saying. Paul, on the other hand, heard and understood. There is no contradiction.

(Haley p.359)

56. When Paul saw the light and fell to the ground, did his traveling companions fall (Acts 26:14) or did they not fall (Acts 9:7) to the ground?

(Category: misunderstood the Greek usage or the text is compatible with a little thought)

There are two possible explanations of this point. The word rendered 'stood' also means to be fixed, to be rooted to the spot. This is something that can be experienced whether standing up or lying down.

An alternative explanation is this: Acts 26:14 states that the initial falling to the ground occurred when the light flashed around, before the voice was heard. Acts 9:7 says that the men 'stood speechless' after the voice had spoken. There would be ample time for them to stand up whilst the voice was speaking to Saul, especially as it had no significance or meaning to them. Saul, on the other hand, understood the voice and was no doubt transfixed with fear as he suddenly realized that for so long he had been persecuting and killing those who were following God. He had in effect been working against the God whom he thought he was serving. This terrible realization evidently kept him on the ground longer than his companions.

(Haley p.359)

57. Did the voice tell Paul what he was to do on the spot (Acts 26:16-18), or was he commanded to go to Damascus to be told what to do (Acts 9:7; 22:10)?

(Category: misunderstood the historical context)

Paul was told his duties in Damascus as can be seen from Acts 9 and 22. However in Acts 26 the context is different. In this chapter Paul doesn't worry about the chronological or geographical order of events because he is talking to people who have already heard his story.

In Acts 9:1-31 Luke, the author of Acts, narrates the conversion of Saul.

In Acts 22:1-21 Luke narrates Paul speaking to Jews, who knew who Paul was and had actually caused him to be arrested and kept in the Roman Army barracks in Jerusalem. He speaks to the Jews from the steps of the barracks and starts off by giving his credentials as a Jew, before launching into a detailed account of his meeting with the Lord Jesus Christ and his conversion.

In Acts 26:2-23 Luke, however, narrates the speech given by Paul, (who was imprisoned for at least two years after his arrest in Jerusalem and his speech in Acts 22,). This was given to the Roman Governor Festus and King Herod Agrippa, both of whom were already familiar with the case. (Read the preceding Chapters). Therefore they did not require a full blown explanation of Paul's case, but a summary. Which is exactly what Paul gives them. This is further highlighted by Paul reminding them of his Jewish credentials in one part of a sentence, "I lived as a Pharisee," as opposed to two sentences in Acts 22:3. Paul also later in the Chapter is aware that King Agrippa is aware of the things that have happened in verses 25-27. (Source)

 

This alleged contradiction isn’t really a contradiction, even though both Zaatari and Ahmed Eldin would have us believe that it is! These gents obviously can only parrot what others have written without even doing some original research on the subject for themselves. The following perfectly describes both Zaatari and Eldin:

Some Muslims are very similar to parrots, THEY JUST PICK UP WHAT THEIR GURUS CLAIM AND REPEAT THEM WITHOUT VERIFICATION. (Al Gharab, Investigating Allah, pg. 48, 2001, 1st ed.).

 

Both Mr. Zaatari and Mr. Eldin lack any real scholarly approach and only expose themselves as propaganda tools for the same worn out arguments of their Muslim gurus Jamal Badawi, Akbarally Meherally and Shabbir Ally. This argument is hardly new and has been around for awhile now. It was then picked up by Muslims and repeated by people who read their material.

 

Hence, Mr. Eldin, and Zaatari before him, are doing nothing more than repeating the same laughable arguments that their masters did before them!

 

Gale continuous by saying or at least try to give a picture that Paul was with disciples and that results that he was approved by the disciples and he was in peace with them. Unfortunately, I will disappoint the desperate Christian and inform him that Paul fought the disciples. Please read the detail article concerning the relationship of Paul with the disciples:

 

http://muslim-responses.com/Paul_VS_the_Disciples/Paul_VS_the_Disciples_

 

Actually, Zaatari is claiming that Paul fought the disciples, not the Bible. According to this very same Bible Paul had a very good relationship with the disciples:

 

"Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul - men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell." Acts 15:22-29

 

And,

 

"Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

 

Peter addresses Paul as a "dear brother" and classifies his writings as inspired Scripture, placing them on the same level of authority as the other divinely revealed Scriptures. The Apostle Luke has this to say,

 

“Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing PERSUASIVELY about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord. God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, ‘In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.’ Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. One day the evil spirit answered them, ‘Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?’ Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding. When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.” Acts 19:8-20  

 

For more information on this very same topic see the following:

 

http://www.answer-islam.org/Stpaulandislam.html

 

Mr. Eldin’s grand source is to cite the material of a mere amateur in debate, Sami Zaatari. Zaatari, who basically plagiarizes other people’s material and tries to pass them off as his own with the intent of masquerading as a scholar of Islam!

 

Knowing the damning evidence that faces him, Mr. Eldin introduces both a red-herring and a straw by raising the issue of the disciples being Muslims:

 

 

This amateur missionary says that the disciples are Muslims. Moreover, according to the Quran as Muslims were believers and they chosen Paul. I wonder where this kid saw the name of Paul in the Quran or where he saw that the disciples choose Paul. At least hilarious. This ignorant fail to realize that if he accepts that disciples are Muslims then in any case could not choose this antichrist Paul because he insulted the religion of Jesus (see the link above) or they could not believe that Jesus is God as the Christians claim. This kid just does not understand the basic things.

 

 

Mr. Eldin is trying to play word games by claiming that Paul isn’t mentioned in the Quran or that the disciples didn’t choose him. It is not surprising that Mr. Eldin could make such gross blunders in logic since, a) he follows a dead illiterate false prophet and, b) he failed to understand my argument.

 

In the first place, the Quran never mentions any disciples of Christ by name, so how does he know who the disciples were if not by consulting the earliest Christian documents?

 

Yet by consulting the earliest extant records of Christianity, specifically the NT documents, Mr. Eldin will run into a major problem since these earliest sources on the life and teachings of the disciples all claim that they fully approved of Paul and confirmed that he had been chosen by Christ himself. Note the following example:

 

"James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, GAVE ME AND BARNABAS the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. THEY AGREED THAT WE SHOULD GO TO THE GENTILES, and they to the Jews. All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. Galatians 2:9-10

 

But then this introduces another problem for Mr. Eldin since the Quran claims that Jesus’ followers were all Muslims:

 

And behold! I INSPIRED THE DISCIPLES to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger. THEY SAID, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah AS MUSLIMS'. S. 5:111

 

This means that Paul must have been a Muslim as well! But how could this be when Paul and the rest of Christ’s followers all taught things contrary to the message of Muhammad? The only explanation is that Muhammad erroneously assumed that Jesus’ followers taught the same things he taught, but little did he realize that he was DEAD wrong!       

 

This leads us to the other problem. Mr. Eldin fails to inform us how Paul insulted the religion of Jesus when the earliest evidence that we have shows that Paul’s teachings perfectly agreed with the instructions of his risen Lord and Master. Note these examples which demonstrate that Paul taught the same things that Jesus did:

 

Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing?

 

     Some critics of Christianity try and set Paul against Jesus. They will often claim that what Paul taught is not what Jesus said and that present-day Christianity is derived not from Jesus, but from Paul's teaching. This is an erroneous claim that does not fit the facts. It is easy to take various scriptures out of context and try and set one person against another -- as many critics of Christianity have done. Nevertheless, we can confidently expect that Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. Granted, Paul focused more on theological issues than Jesus did, but nothing Paul said is contrary to Christ.
     Luke wrote both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts.  In Acts 9 Luke records the events surrounding Paul's conversion.  We see that Jesus himself called Paul and sent him to be an apostle.  If Paul and Jesus are not in agreement, then why would Jesus call Paul to be his apostle?  Jesus is God in flesh and would therefore know all things.  Jesus would certainly have known what Paul would teach which, it seems, is one of the reasons Jesus called him.
     In addition, we can quickly see by examining what Jesus said and finding parallels in what Paul said.  Following is a brief alphabetical list comparing the words of Christ with the words of Paul.  We can clearly see that they were indeed in agreement and that the critics who would set Paul against Christ don't know what they're talking about.

    1. Alive in Christ.

Jesus.

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21).

Paul.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22).

    1. Anxiety.      

Jesus.          

"For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25).

Paul.           

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6).

3.       Atonement.      

Jesus.

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11)

Paul. 

"and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2).

4.       Deity of Jesus. 

Jesus.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58).  Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Paul.

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9).  See also, Phil. 2:5-8.

  1. Forgiveness.

Jesus.           

"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14).

Paul.

"And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32).

  1. Jesus is the only way.

Jesus.

"Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6).

 Paul.

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Tim. 2:5).

7.       Justification by faith.      

Jesus.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24).  See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13.

Paul.

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).

8.       the Law.

Jesus. 

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).

Paul.    

“Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31).

"What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17).

9. Law, living the.

Jesus.

"You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18).       

Paul.  

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10)

10.   Predestination.

 Jesus.

"Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given," (Matt. 19:11).

"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:44).

"For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65).

Paul.

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will... 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will," (Eph. 1:5,11).

11.   Resurrection. 

Jesus.

"The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23).

Paul.

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4).

12.   Rewards and Punishment.

Jesus.

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds," (Matt. 16:27).

Paul.

"who will render to every man according to his deeds," (Rom. 2:6).

13.   Sinfulness of man.           

Jesus.           

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19).

Paul.           

"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one,” (Rom. 3:11-12).

14.   Tradition.

Jesus. 

"And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3).

Paul.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8).

15.   Works Righteousness denied.

Jesus.

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23).

Paul.

"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11).

As you can see, this brief list demonstrates that Jesus and Paul both taught the same thing. (Source)

 

Hence, the idea that the disciples thought Paul was an antichrist is the figment of Mr. Eldin’s vivid imagination. If anything, their teachings perfectly agreed with Paul’s which means that if anyone was the antichrist it was Muhammad!

 

It gets worse for Mr. Eldin:

 

Then he quotes an Islamic source and claims that they speak good about Paul. He qutotes a strange “ Islamic Source”  “Ibid. p. 653; bold and capital emphasis ours). Personally I don’t know this Islamic Source but even if it is a valid one then nowhere in the text present Paul as the truthful Apostle. The strange thing is that it claims this quote that Paul was NOT one of the disciples of Jesus. In addition, this quote is not an authentic hadeedth from our Prophet Muhammad or a verse from the Holy Quran. Despite the fact that the most important to say about these Islamic sources are not ALL of them Valid in a Islamic Theological concept, is just expressing a personal opinion of the Muslim writer. The same apply for the quote “[State University of New York Press, Albany 1987], p. 123;”

 

 

Actually, I forgot to put what the source was. The source comes from Alfred Guillaume's translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasulullah titled The Life of Muhammad (Oxford University Press Karachi). This is the most authentic biography of Muhammad in Islam since it is based on Ibn Ishaq’s earlier material, which predates the Sahih Hadiths. This quote is authentic and is universally accepted by many of Muslim scholars such as al-Tabari:

 

"Among the apostles, and the followers who came after them were the Apostle Peter and Paul who was a follower and not an apostle; they went to Rome. Andrew and Matthew were sent to the country whose people are man-eaters, a land of blacks, we think; Thomas was sent to Babylonia in the east, Philip to Qayrawan (and) Carthage, that is, North Africa. John went to Ephesus, the city of the youths of the cave, and James to Jerusalem, that is, Aelia. Bartholomew was sent to Arabia, namely, the Hijaz; Simeon to the land of the Berbers in Africa. Judas was not then an apostle, so his place was taken by Ariobus. He filled in for Judas Iscariot after the latter had perpetrated his deed." (he History of Al-Tabari: The Ancient Kingdoms, trans. Moshe Perlmann [State University of New York Press, Albany 1987], Volume IV, p. 123; bold emphasis ours)

 

And al-Qurtubi:

 

It was said that THIS VERSE was revealed about the apostles of Jesus, may peace and blessing be upon him. Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome; Andrew and Matthew who went to the land of the cannibals; Thomas who went to Babel in the eastern lands; Philip who went to Africa; John went to Dac-sos (?) which is the tribe to whom the sleepers of the cave belonged; Jacob went to Jerusalem; Bartholomew went to the lands of Arabia, specifically Al-Hijaz; Simon who went to the Barbarians; Judas and Barthas (?) who went to Alexandria and its surrounding regions.

Allah supported them (the apostles) with evidence so that they prevailed (thahirin) meaning they became the party with the upper hand. Just as it is said, "An object appeared on the wall" meaning it is clearly visible (alu-wat) on the wall. Allah, who is glorified and exalted, knows the truth better and to Him is the return and retreat. (Commentary on Q. 61:14: http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KORTOBY&nType=1&nSora=61&nAya=14; translated into English by Dimitrius, bold and capital emphasis ours)

He continues:

 

Concerning now the Quranic verses that this uneducated Christian posted:

 

Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.” S. 3:55 

Superior in the sight of Allah and superior to the guide of the true path. He then posts

 

O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, “Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the Disciples, “We are Allah's helpers!” then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. S. 61:14 

Of course the followers (those who followed the original teachings of Jesus) of Jesus prevailed not military not in power but in the sight of Allah and wining His pleasure. Most important the Quranic verses never say that the followers of Paul will be the successful. Yet this missionary posted the tafsir of ibn kathir and he was exposed in his own!

 

THROUGHOUT THIS TIME, the Christians had the upper hand and dominated the Jews. ALLAH AIDED THEM AGAINST THE JEWS BECAUSE THEY USED TO BE CLOSER TO THE TRUTH THAN THE JEWS, even though both groups were and still are disbelievers, may Allah’s curse descend on them.” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged), Volume 2, Parts 3, 4, & 5 (Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, Verse 147), abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors Riyadh, Houston, New York, Lahore; First Edition: March 2000], p. 171; bold and capital emphasis ours) 

 

Yet he realized that he exposed by this quote and claims :

 

“Ibn Kathir’s explanation doesn’t solve the problem since the Quran claims that the true followers of Christ would prevail and yet the Christianity that prevailed is the one that Ibn Kathir attacks as false. At the same time Ibn Kathir admits that this aberration is that which God caused to prevail!”

What can you say? this man is so desperate. He is answering to himself by the quotation of ibn kathir. Again the true followers not Paul prevailed in a manner not military not in power but in the sight of Allah and wining His pleasure.

 

Please read the following article that deals in detail concerning the issue “ Quran affirms Paul”

http://muslim-responses.com/The_Quran_and_Paul/The_Quran_and_Paul_

 

 

The desperate Christian continuous by saying that Allah quoted Paul.

 

The Prophet said, "ALLAH SAID, 'I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.'" (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589)

 

This was prepared by God NOT by Paul I wonder if these ignorant missionary knows how to read:

 

"However, as it is written: 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.'" 1 Corinthians 2:9

 

He exposed by himself

 

Response:

 

Mr. Eldin rests upon the fact that the statement “what God has prepared for those who love him" somehow proves that it was Allah, not Paul, who originated this teaching. Apparently he doesn’t realize that Allah didn't directly quote Isaiah but parroted Paul's words which he wrote under inspiration.

 

The reference to what God has prepared for those who love him isn't present at all in the Isaiah text or in any of the OT sayings attributed to God. It is a statement of Paul’s as he paraphrased what the OT says regarding this issue.

 

In other words, Muhammad is putting in the mouth of Allah THE VERY WORDS OF THE APOSTLE PAUL! This was my whole point!

 

I don’t see how this exposed me at all. In actuality, this quote stumped Mr. Eldin since he clearly doesn’t have an answer as to why Allah would allude to Paul’s words as opposed to the phrasing of Isaiah. Apparently this was too difficult for him to answer so he ignored it and focused on “what God prepared”, which is ironically THE WORDS OF PAUL, not Isaiah! Part 2 coming very soon! It only gets better!

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