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Jehovah's
Witnesses
See
also:
Rev
4:11
A
Dialog with MS
Stafford,
Furuli and John 20:28
by James
Stewart
The way in
which I will respond to Mr. Stafford and Mr. Furuli is built on the
foundation of M. J. Harris’ forth chapter in his book
Jesus as God.
(You can order a copy of Harris'
book here). You need to have this
chapter in order to make sense of the answers to Mr. Stafford and Mr.
Furuli. This paper also
assumes the reader has read the appropriate sections in Mr. Stafford’s
and Mr. Furuli’s books. You
need to know the context of the quotes.
I will list by number Mr. Stafford’s and Mr. Furuli’s arguments
from their books. I will then
respond by a reference to M. J. Harris’ chapter that answers that
argument or will respond myself if the argument is not addressed by Prof.
Harris.
Furuli’s
Arguments
- 1.
Page 220, “In this passage it is not possible to claim that the
article has semantic importance, and that Jesus is therefore identical
with ho theos in John 1:1, because the article is grammatically
required…Because the phrase has a possessive pronoun (“my”), the
word theos must be definite, and in Greek it cannot stand
without the article.”
- Page
220, note 42, “If the words of John 20:28 were directed only to
Jesus, is rather strange that the nominative form kurios and
not the vocative form kurie was used.”
- Page
221, “We cannot know exactly what Thomas meant with his
exclamation.”
- Page
221, “Those believing in the trinity can hardly argue that Thomas
meant that Jesus was the same
as ho theos, with whom the Word is said to be in John 1:1,
because this would be tantamount to Sabellianism.”
- Page
221, “Thus, Thomas’ words do not add anything to our understanding
of the word theos when used of Jesus in John 1:1c, 18.”
Stafford’s
Arguments
- Page
350, “The Logos as
“a god”
- Page
351, “…it may be that Thomas never intended to call Jesus
“God” at all, but merely directed his exclamation of praise to
both Jesus and the Father, the latter being directly
responsible for the resurrection of the Lord (compare Ga 1:2; 2Co
4:14; Heb 13:20), which is what Thomas doubted.”
- Page
351, note 116, “Unless, as we argue, they were doing so against
the backdrop of the OT, which made it quite acceptable to refer to
other inferior divine beings who served Jehovah. Again, see the
discussion of biblical monotheism in Chapter 2.”
- Page
351, “…and Thomas’ reply was spoken to him …But was
it directed to him?”
- Page
352, Quote by Margaret Davies “But it is perfectly appropriate for
Thomas to respond to Jesus’ resurrection with a confession of
faith both in Jesus as his Lord and in God who sent and raised
Jesus…If we understand Thomas’ confession as an assertion that
Jesus is God, this confession in 20.31 becomes an anti-climax.”
- Page
352, Thomas’ words are not recorded with “Lord” in its typical
vocative (direct address) form (KURIE, kyrie); rather, the
nominative form (KURIOS, kyrios) is used.”
- Page
353, In commenting on Psalm 35:23, he states, “But here “God” precedes
“Lord.” This is the
opposite of John 20:28…”
- Page
354, “This can be done in a manner patterned after the numerous
references to angels as “God”…”
- Page
354, “Such a confession, as in the case of Thomas, is qualified
not only by the context (Joh 20:17), but also by the whole of
Scripture.”
- Page
355, “Here Jesus, in the same state Thomas addresses him, says
that the Father is his God, again differentiating between the two in
terms of theos, as well as acknowledging the Father’s
superiority over him, as his God…Thomas had no concept of a
consubstantial Trinity.”
Answers to Furuli
1.
See Harris pages 110-111, 3. Vocatival, Addressed to Jesus “In
response Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and My God!’”
And pages 121-122, 2. The Meaning and Theological Significance of
Thomas’s Cry.
First Mr. Furuli
says, “…it is not possible to claim that the article has semantic
importance…” Then he
says, “There is of course a possibility that it has semantic
importance…” So, is it
‘possible’ or ‘not possible?’
So what, if the article is grammatically required, John wrote this
phrase on purpose this way. Like
Mr. Furuli states in the next sentence, “Because the phrase has a
possessive pronoun (“my”) the word theos must be definite…”
So you would still say ‘the Lord and the God’ whether there is
an article or not. The Straw
Man that Mr. Furuli builds is when he states that Trinitarians try to make
Jesus identical with ho theos of John 1:1.
Which creed in the Church made that statement?
What Trinitarian was he referring to?
I don’t know of any official sources that teach that.
2.
See Harris pages 107-108, b. Referring to Jesus: “Thomas answered
him, ‘My Lord is also my God.’”
As can be seen, it is not so strange.
3.
This verse is not very hard to understand.
The Aid to Bible Understanding on page 885 quotes the Imperial
Bible Dictionary approvingly, “He (the Hebrew) says again and again my
God…; but never my Jehovah, for when he says my God,
He means Jehovah.” See also
Rudolf Bultman’s (who does not believe Jesus is Deity) commentary on the
Gospel of John, Westminster Press, 1971 pages 694-695 and footnotes,
“Thomas is so overpowered that the confession springs to his lips, “My
Lord and My God!” (v.28). That
confession is wholly appropriate to him who has risen; going far beyond
the earlier confession, “My Master” (v.16), it sees in Jesus God
himself. “He who has seen
me Has seen the Father,” Jesus had
said in 14.9 (cp. 12.45) Thomas
has now seen Jesus in the way that Jesus wills to be seen and ought to be
seen. By means of these words
HO THEOS MOU, the last confession spoken in the gospel makes it clear that
Jesus, to whom it refers, is the Logos who has now returned to the place
where he was before the Incarnation, and who is glorified with the glory
that he had with the Father before the world was (17.5); he is now
recognized as the THEOS that he was from the beginning (1:1).”
If the man who thinks a supernatural Jesus is a myth can see this,
why can’t Mr. Furuli? It is
obvious that what is being done by Thomas in John 20:28, is the same thing
being done in Rev. 4:11 by the twenty-four elders, “You are worthy, our
Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power,…”
This passage is pretty straight forward.
Here is a list of scriptures: Psalms 34:23, 43:5, 63:1; Jer. 38:18;
Zech. 13:9; Matt. 4:7, 10, 22:37, 27:46; Mk. 5:34,12:29; Lk. 1:78, 4:8,
12; Jn. 8:54, 20:17, 20:28; Acts 2:39; Ro. 1:8; 1Cor. 1:4, 6:11; 2Cor.
12:21; Php. 1:3; 1Thess. 2:2, 3:9; 2Thess. 1:11; Phm. 1:4; Heb. 1:9; Rev.
3:12, 4:11, 5:10, 7:3, 12:10, 19:1, 19:5, 21:3.
Take a look at these scriptures and notice similar phrases such as-
my God, your God, our God, and their God.
Notice the continuity in meaning.
The word God is used in various contexts- worship, affirmation,
confession, and teaching. There are no quantitative levels of deity in any of these
passages. Jehovah’s
Witnesses teach that THEOS in Jn 20:28 means god but in a lesser sense.
This is an equivocation on the word god based on the presupposition
that god when applied to the Father means God and when applied to the son
means god. There is no
lexical evidence or contextual markers for this change.
When he says we “…can’t know exactly…,” is he being
philosophical as in we are finite? Or
is he being historical such as we would have to talk to John to know for
sure? And since we,
“…can’t know exactly…,” why is it that the Trinitarian
interpretation is ruled out? Why
not the Arian? Could it be because he is Arian?
4.
Again, Mr. Furuli builds a straw man.
Does he quote a creed or an
official Trinitarian? NO!
The key point is that while John 1:1 would be Sabellianism had
THEOS been articular (it being an equative phrase), Jn 20:28 emphatically
is not. There is no equative
verb here. Thomas is calling
Jesus HIS God!
5.
Mr. Furuli is begging the question here.
Thomas’ words do add to our understanding of the word THEOS when
used of Jesus in Jn 1:1 and 18. If
one is a monotheist, this is an incredible confession.
This would identify Jesus the One God.
If you are a polytheist, it’s no big deal. Jesus is just one of the gods just like in Greek mythology.
Answers to Stafford
1.
This is a poor title for this section.
There is no ‘a god’ in this passage.
Regarding the ‘a god’ supposition, I’d be sure to mention
that there are 135 occurrences of ‘my God’ in the Bible.
When spoken by a Jew, it always refers to Yahweh (unless Jn 20:28
is an exception). Further,
calling ‘a god’ MY God would break the first commandment (Ex 20:3). For how could a good 2nd temple Jew call another
being His God, without placing that god before Yahweh? MOU is possessive – thus, Thomas is making
a very personal statement – “my OWN God!”
It simply is not credible that he could say this
of any God but Yahwah.
2.
It’s only a possibility if you are a deconstructionist. See Harris pages 106 –111.
The scriptures that Mr. Stafford references are only a smoke
screen. There is no
comparison at all. None of
those verses has Paul speaking to the Father or Jesus and directing it to
the other.
3.
I must refer to Sam Shamoun’s article on the Trinity Defended
web-site called ‘Biblical Monotheism.’
It is a refutation of Mr. Stafford’s chapter ‘Understanding
Biblical Monotheism.’ He
demonstrates that Mr. Stafford’s ‘Biblical Monotheism’= Henotheism
which is a sub-category of polytheism.
4.
Again, I refer to Harris pages 106-111.
Is there one example from Biblical or extra-Biblical of someone
directing worship to Jehovah by speaking to another.
Does Mr. Stafford speak worship to his brother/sister and directed
it to Jehovah? APEDRITHE…EIPEN
AUTW(i) is a common idiom in the New Testament.
This idiom always precedes a statement directed to the referent of
the dative AUTOS. There is no
lexical support in any of the standard references (BAGD, M&M, and Louw
& Nida) for a ‘relative address” with any of the words in
question. There is no grammatical support in any of the standard
grammars for a ‘relative address’ (spoken to another).
5.
See Harris c. The Meaning of THEOS pages 124-127
6.
See Harris pages 107-108 b. Referring to Jesus: “Thomas answered
him, ‘My Lord is also my God.’”
7.
See Harris pages 120-121 e. Experimental.
At this point, I want to give a quote by A.T. Robertson in his
grammar page 466 that responds to Abbott in this context, “In Rev. 4:11
we have also the vocative case in HO KURIOS KAI HO THEOS.
In Jo. 20:28 Thomas addresses Jesus as HO KURIOS MOU KAI HO THEOS
MOU, the vocative like those above. Yet,
strange to say, Winer calls this exclamation rather than address,
apparently to avoid the conclusion that Thomas was satisfied as to the
deity of Jesus by his appearance to him after the resurrection.
Dr. E.A. Abbott follows suit also in an extended argument
to show that KURIE HO THEOS is the LXX way of addressing God, not
HO KURIOS KAI HO THEOS. But
after he had written he appends a note to p. 95 to the effect that “this
is not quite satisfactory. For
xiii 13, PHONEITE ME HO DIDASKALOS KAI HO KURIOS, and Rev. 4:11 AXIOS EI
HO KURIOS KAI HO THEOS HEMON, ought to have been mentioned above.”
This is a manly retraction, and he adds: “John may have used it
here exceptionally.” Leave
out “exceptionally” and the conclusion is just.
If Thomas used Aramaic he certainly used the article.
It is no more exceptional in Jo. 20:28 than in Rev. 4:11.”
8.
Again I reference Sam Shamoun’s article.
9.
John 20:17 is a great passage demonstrating that “My God” is
this passage means the same semantic meaning as Jn 20:28.
See Answers to Furuli note 3.
If Jesus note God in Jn 20:28, then neither is the Father in 20:17!
10.
A. Harnack (History of Dogma, 4:41-42) has an interesting
evaluation of Arius that somewhat applies here: “A son who is no son, a
Logos who is no logos, a monotheism which nevertheless does not exclude
polytheism, two or three ousias which are to be revered, while yet only one
of them is really distinct from the creatures, and indefinable being who
first becomes God by becoming man and who is yet neither God nor man, and
so on. In every single point
we have apparent clearness while all is hollow and formal, a boyish
enthusiasm for playing with husks and shells, and a childish
self-satisfaction in the working out of empty syllogisms.”
Whether Thomas had a concept of the Trinity or not is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that Thomas (a true monotheistic Hebrew not a biblical monotheistic polytheist) worshiped Jesus as his God.
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